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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Cc: "Michael Heerdegen" <michael_heerdegen@web.de>,
	"Mattias Engdegård" <mattiase@acm.org>,
	ke.vigouroux@laposte.net, 40671@debbugs.gnu.org,
	"Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>
Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 17:55:22 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <278a1350-8b9e-4f3b-854a-723d578129f3@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <a5f6c834-a228-ce01-471c-09d8602f1603@cs.ucla.edu>

> I don't see why we should depart from terminology used by 
> C/C++/Fortran/Common Lisp/etc.; it's reasonably well-established.

You're _not_ using the language that's used for Common Lisp.

I echoed what the CL doc said.  Elisp corresponds
to the behavior of CLTL1 in this regard, not to any
later update that makes the interpreter behave more
like compiled code (raising an error in both).

Like CLTL1, we should just warn about the gotcha,
not say that it's about modification or attempted
modification of "constants".

A few mails ago, you wondered if the disagreement
has been only about terminology.  And the response
was mostly "Yes" - objections to your use of
"mutable" and "constant"/"immutable", and your use
of "cannot" instead of "should not" (aka "Don't").

You've since ignored that response, it seems.  This
has dragged on, just circling.  I, for one, give up.

But I do hope you'll listen to others.  And yes,
Michael's point about committing before discussing
& deciding is spot on too.  Remember your curly-quote
crusade?  You did the same thing then, with similar
complaints about acting widely, unilaterally, and
prematurely.

My suggestion is to see how people have already
warned users about this gotcha here & there (forums
etc.) and do likewise.  Come to an agreement about
the behavior to warn users about - in practical,
operational, but not exhaustive, terms.

A simple quoted-list example is enough, along with
a general description.  Once there's agreement
about the message, including any example(s), the
wording will fall out naturally.  (At least the
wording won't be a battleground, once the message
is decided on.)





  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-04-29  0:55 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 170+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-16 19:28 bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Kevin Vigouroux via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2020-04-17 16:09 ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-17 16:37   ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-17 17:27     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-18 20:10 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-18 21:54   ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19  2:39     ` Noam Postavsky
2020-04-19 20:39     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 21:01       ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 21:16         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 22:24           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 22:51             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  5:32               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-22 17:36                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01  3:03     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01  5:16       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 21:46       ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01 23:37         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-19  2:26   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-19 13:56   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-19 16:59     ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-19 19:21       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-19 21:02       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 21:11         ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 21:57         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-19 22:41           ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-19 23:45             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-20  0:24               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  0:53                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-20  3:23                   ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  3:36                     ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-22  6:30                       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  5:54                     ` Drew Adams
2020-04-22 17:21                       ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-23  0:49                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-24  2:36                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-24 15:08                             ` Drew Adams
2020-04-25  1:58                               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-24 16:39                             ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-04-24 16:46                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-25  2:21                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  2:40                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-25  3:20                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25 19:30                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26  3:49                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 14:03                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 14:19                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 14:34                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 15:46                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 16:02                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 16:58                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 17:39                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:14                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 18:32                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:41                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-26 18:53                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 18:57                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 19:22                                               ` Philipp Stephani
2020-04-26 20:14                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-26 21:23                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-26 23:13                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-27  0:53                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-27  1:49                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28  3:05                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28  8:17                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 13:54                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 17:59                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 18:46                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 19:20                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 19:33                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 20:09                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 21:10                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:10                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:36                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:53                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:57                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 23:53                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  0:04                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  0:14                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  0:55                                                                           ` Drew Adams [this message]
2020-04-29  1:03                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-29  1:15                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29  1:27                                                                                 ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  1:38                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  4:36                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29 16:18                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01  2:47                                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  6:23                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-01  3:13                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01  5:15                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 21:40                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-01 22:05                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 22:28                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-02  1:07                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02  6:28                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-02 15:42                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 19:35                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03  1:30                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03  7:40                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 16:44                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 20:48                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 22:17                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 22:18                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 22:39                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-03 22:53                                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 23:10                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-04 10:16                                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-04 17:52                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05  1:39                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-05  6:09                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05 12:38                                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-09  6:10                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-10  3:13                                                                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-10 13:34                                                                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-10 17:29                                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  0:00                                                                                                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  0:26                                                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  1:47                                                                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  1:54                                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  2:33                                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  2:56                                                                                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  4:21                                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-05-11  4:51                                                                                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  6:28                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11 13:57                                                                                                                                       ` Noam Postavsky
2020-05-11 22:36                                                                                                                                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11 22:30                                                                                                                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-12  3:20                                                                                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-12  4:24                                                                                                                                         ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-13  3:57                                                                                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-13  5:05                                                                                                                                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-14  5:14                                                                                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]                                                                                                                                       ` <05BEF593-F16A-4DEE-98BC-653221F1F9EE@acm.org>
2020-05-17  0:11                                                                                                                                         ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17  9:43                                                                                                                                           ` Mattias Engdegård
2020-05-17 16:38                                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  1:53                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-11  3:18                                                                                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-11  0:44                                                                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-11  1:57                                                                                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-12  1:59                                                                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17  1:28                                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17  5:02                                                                                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-05-17 16:34                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-17 12:39                                                                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-17 16:21                                                                                                                                     ` Paul Eggert
2020-05-05 17:40                                                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-05-05 18:49                                                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-05 19:26                                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-05 20:48                                                                                                               ` Kevin Vigouroux via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors
2020-05-09  5:57                                                                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 21:18                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-28 17:25                                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-28 17:47                                                             ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  0:32                                                               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  1:40                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-29  4:40                                                                   ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-29  8:01                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 16:36                                                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-24 17:18                               ` Drew Adams
2020-04-25  3:38                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-25 18:26                                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  2:22                           ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-25  6:00                             ` Andreas Schwab
2020-04-25 18:23                               ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-28 23:52                             ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-21  1:25               ` Michael Heerdegen
2020-04-21  2:20                 ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20  6:02             ` Drew Adams
2020-04-19 20:45     ` Paul Eggert
2020-04-20 14:10       ` Eli Zaretskii

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