simple loaded during startup

simple loaded during startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Doing 
strace -o emacs.strace emacs -Q --no-site-file -nw
and then
grep simple emacs.strace

shows that "simple" is being loaded during startup. This seems strange
given that "simple" should be in the dumped image... 
If one deletes all traces of simple.el simple.elc simple.el.gz etc
then emacs gives a "Wrong type argument: nil" error when starting up. 

Does anyone know if loading "simple" at startup is intentional?

Thanks

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu>
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:59:22 -0800
> 
> Doing 
> strace -o emacs.strace emacs -Q --no-site-file -nw
> and then
> grep simple emacs.strace
> 
> shows that "simple" is being loaded during startup. This seems strange
> given that "simple" should be in the dumped image... 
> If one deletes all traces of simple.el simple.elc simple.el.gz etc
> then emacs gives a "Wrong type argument: nil" error when starting up. 
> 
> Does anyone know if loading "simple" at startup is intentional?

Actually, Emacs doesn't _load_ simple.elc (put a breakpoint in Fload,
and you'll never see "simple" being loaded), it only locates it.  This
is because startup.el:command-line does this:

  ;; Convert preloaded file names to absolute.
  (let ((lisp-dir
	 (file-truename
	  (file-name-directory
	   (locate-file "simple" load-path
			(get-load-suffixes))))))

(Armed with lisp-dir, it then proceeds to convert relative file names
in load-history into absolute file names.)

IOW, we use simple.elc as an indicator where the Lisp files reside on
the file system, which is the value of lisp-dir computed in the above
snippet.

I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you?

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Dan Nicolaescu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

  > > From: Dan Nicolaescu <dann@ics.uci.edu>
  > (Armed with lisp-dir, it then proceeds to convert relative file names
  > in load-history into absolute file names.)
  > 
  > IOW, we use simple.elc as an indicator where the Lisp files reside on
  > the file system, which is the value of lisp-dir computed in the above
  > snippet.
  > 
  > I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you?

No, that seems fine. And your fix certainly clarifies what is going
on. 

Thanks

Re: simple loaded during startup

[A Soare]

De par ma volonte que je me fasse bien compris, je me permet de vous repondre en francais.

Je pense que simple.el doit se faire charger durant l'ammorcage, meme si vous utiliser -Q = ( -q + --no-site-file)

simple.el contient les plus elementaires fonctions , a savoir goto-line, mark-whole-buffer, etc (veillez lire * Emacs Lisp Introduction: (eintr). A simple introduction to Emacs Lisp programming.) en ELISP node. C'est mon avis.

Je donne egalement une traduction anglaise. 

----------------------------------

I think that simple.el must be loaded during the start up, even if you use -Q, because it contains the most elementary editing funcions, indispensable in every major mode.

Alin Soare

Re: simple loaded during startup

[A Soare]

I have one misunderstanding on this subject: When Emacs starts it parse some standard files (including simple.el) to load their symbols in load-history, in order to know where to find their definitions... It creates in the same time the main obarray to keep the symbols, and in load-histoy keeps the place of their definitions. Is it true? Sure, it is true.


My problem is:
How can I check during startup (at every step when Emacs starts) what LISP symbols are loaded and their semantict (id est value).

Thanks for teaching me a method.

I am very interested about.


Merci d'avance,


Alin Soare.

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Richard Stallman]

    Actually, Emacs doesn't _load_ simple.elc (put a breakpoint in Fload,
    and you'll never see "simple" being loaded), it only locates it.  This
    is because startup.el:command-line does this:

Could you add this explanation as a comment?

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Stuart D. Herring]

> I have one misunderstanding on this subject: When Emacs starts it parse
> some standard files (including simple.el) to load their symbols in
> load-history, in order to know where to find their definitions... It
> creates in the same time the main obarray to keep the symbols, and in
> load-histoy keeps the place of their definitions. Is it true? Sure, it is
> true.

Almost true -- some files are "preloaded", which means that a preliminary
version of Emacs ("temacs") loads them when Emacs is built and then a new
Emacs executable is created which -has already loaded them-, which is a
slightly odd concept.  The important bit is that at each normal Emacs
start, it doesn't load as many files.

> My problem is:
> How can I check during startup (at every step when Emacs starts) what LISP
> symbols are loaded and their semantict (id est value).
>
> Thanks for teaching me a method.

Perhaps you could use `load-read-function', and call `mapatoms' from your
wrapper for `read'?

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Stuart D. Herring]

> I think that simple.el must be loaded during the start up, even if you use
> -Q, because it contains the most elementary editing funcions,
> indispensable in every major mode.

[Your translation, though of course partial, is fine!]

As per my previous message, Emacs preloads many files, and one of them is
simple.el[c].  The concern was that simple.elc was being loaded -again- at
the normal Emacs startup; it turns out that it was being -used-, but not
-loaded-, at that time.

Davis

-- 
This product is sold by volume, not by mass.  If it appears too dense or
too sparse, it is because mass-energy conversion has occurred during
shipping.

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Richard Stallman]

simple.elc est chargé dans la phase de production de l'executable.

Re: simple loaded during startup

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> CC: dann@ics.uci.edu, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 23:05:56 -0500
> 
>     Actually, Emacs doesn't _load_ simple.elc (put a breakpoint in Fload,
>     and you'll never see "simple" being loaded), it only locates it.  This
>     is because startup.el:command-line does this:
> 
> Could you add this explanation as a comment?

Done.