From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Rogers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2023 12:04:05 -0800 Message-ID: <25933.15157.138544.776911@orion.rgrjr.com> References: <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87bkc4jpja.fsf@dataswamp.org> <87msvnhsdi.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39060"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 09 21:05:18 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r1BHB-0009uy-Gq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 21:05:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1BG8-0000l8-El; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 15:04:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1BG7-0000ky-EY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 15:04:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x429.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::429]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r1BG5-0004yO-Eo for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 15:04:11 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x429.google.com with SMTP id d2e1a72fcca58-6bd32d1a040so1297148b3a.3 for ; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 12:04:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrjr-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1699560246; x=1700165046; darn=gnu.org; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=0ntZMsiwpl4ApDqFTyA/61vuH8Qe2XxXf0Pp+ru0jT0=; b=EFRhcnayyWDESTM1zGqxU4KmDhyJEA7cFxi20WUpFYRBHX1Grbwnutk+zNjGD0ppnZ bkishotme2+wmhpVKcoUQDxP0SqPUkJ13V8q3UH9fcUEbB+QbRhrtjFhtLYON0vfupZR l12dfhB6H4iU4VWyK1NxGrNhHONHsaeMMTKWNudmxZJH6OeP/oFm+RXkpQs1sED3FC6c X4bV2qsPsy1reb7hQMWh3VSQ6MfCH2mzi4mFxocDQQPw4zoM+yHlWMzXzSR43aEzJeHs WT30YdWJgIfuhJUpxkvR4P1u02b/EaQB2PGYQ/XyGmN5dOxyxmrq9Jlthul2JGkszlNr naxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699560246; x=1700165046; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=0ntZMsiwpl4ApDqFTyA/61vuH8Qe2XxXf0Pp+ru0jT0=; b=OARn//FPuymS1d5ehaV2y9G+bxNt3UjWj79Ng/cLaxlRprqOp7nyEr42Imop0oFzyt yaaei3iZhjNw4lwDQqQfZ4kKzcIYbPdLP6za935uWxkTKXWGl3KTQdU2fwfC+QUAxlhw aWIUPlZp1Qy+iBsfmHvsWGiTYOujxw1iMMg3/EUtTq5NbmDcEtTELqpY9pt1bR1qm2oy SPNoMb9q9mPZotNrVBeP3iX+AtTpL1Wz2BgwqtYEIHF+K7+Tvfw7Kztqsc1bUi3YT/MY hl2sg+7Y99KVAWxQsAsY/SSK7aMuiAEI8l6wkZ2g1IKGUsp2Ojz+iq1J3wXriX1EDuPS n68A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw422R2dcq6yXiGPPaUW2HB42DwosnrmjCeMlMMhqCQKbSKOXxa QhtTSkItThH7UE5QME/vGI7aYJIRKp0mhkCPVtA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHtf2gpTSWFn7orZ56928vZq1prBkeMPWDk/82h1mY5Ywtn0RfLjsM0aLdEcprJL9lwqd3vLg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:248f:b0:6c3:1c74:9c5 with SMTP id c15-20020a056a00248f00b006c31c7409c5mr6439545pfv.0.1699560246581; Thu, 09 Nov 2023 12:04:06 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from orion.rgrjr.com ([2600:1700:7c2c:e000::22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b4-20020a631b44000000b005bd36c0c23fsm5093641pgm.37.2023.11.09.12.04.05 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 09 Nov 2023 12:04:06 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: Bob Rogers In-Reply-To: <87msvnhsdi.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::429; envelope-from=rogers@rgrjr.com; helo=mail-pf1-x429.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -51 X-Spam_score: -5.2 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.265, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312442 Archived-At: From: Emanuel Berg Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2023 16:13:29 +0100 Alan Mackenzie wrote: > The most troublesome cl-lib functions are those without > adequate documentation. They're the ones that waste > unbounded amounts of time when trying to debug something > which uses them. That's why I'd like to do away with them. Why not instead provide them with docstrings, I think everyone can agree they should have them? As a long-time CL/EL hacker, I will also undertake to document cl-lib functions. I think that is a much easier, and safer, alternative to trying to recode cl-* usage. FWIW, I am also of the philosophy that simple functions should be used where possible and cl-* functions where necessary, all in the name of keeping my own code concise and readable. But, alas, readability is in the eye of the beholder. -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/