From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Rogers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What's missing in ELisp that makes people want to use cl-lib? Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 15:33:26 -0700 Message-ID: <25925.30006.441003.908216@orion.rgrjr.com> References: <46ab3c7d-d820-4bb4-8ec4-97c614d7c8a0@alphapapa.net> <871qd8sfdx.fsf@posteo.net> <838r7g8pys.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcbrgnr.fsf@posteo.net> <25924.21015.19614.951576@orion.rgrjr.com> <87y1ffh905.fsf@dataswamp.org> <25925.20298.762180.948150@orion.rgrjr.com> <87edh6h92o.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12968"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 03 23:34:22 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qz2kA-00037A-09 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 23:34:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz2jO-00055J-Rb; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 18:33:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz2jM-000539-8G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 18:33:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x636.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::636]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qz2jK-0005dj-5w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 18:33:31 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x636.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1cc3bc5df96so21492535ad.2 for ; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 15:33:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrjr-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1699050808; x=1699655608; darn=gnu.org; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=A1L/eeOA0Zfkbtc6yO7Vx/6a7iQCwh7UF/OjQs6UynQ=; b=HFhCn3bv4YYkPgjyrU7yRp7TCElN8gdZ+Q1njDnIhSWJZ6LVHHQZtfewSTZf07wgum +4JIZzCrf7a+oej3YwVOHG6XUF/+dM1jr7Uiv538Lpc6lz0kyWZCCcJPS6oAa5pfp7DH hBe8rnpSYvhMGi13sVVNISZWXr8dFlTJvpMIitdNE/EzJxFyYYy2wlschRKGr2QzDoDD KLnc2i5y3nRz6Eta/dsr9LPZqYImKn1v4My263/tXoHsxCTQLtpbILrz7RrJEt62uttb cUIzB0cPRBV8GZFq/1pp7xIzc+uOgdsssp7jcE/vBseuyFxiwE5NDy7mkE+v0PRobNYn 0Wkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699050808; x=1699655608; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=A1L/eeOA0Zfkbtc6yO7Vx/6a7iQCwh7UF/OjQs6UynQ=; b=l5axNI1tFRf4Dz/V8WPjjp6bcX2lpW5wd6Xv6hJIIJcAqdaUXHi8Da243zvuKRg7fK viOpZkxjmeV/wkkn7nAxXejollVYFeQk3G32s9IvR4QjbptJ8T4R9jmPNDiVyai8OzMP ppz92qL3sJaGDXckQv9KQ+2vhu0ys+rhFu1iYfnbybrkOmzkdiEWQRxh4PBAGzwu8B2g pzM0Lmn4P4q5hyX563RrDmdmVfDzw04wILsDjmvQvPfC74gSbyd5z8/hY/Vty/2i2YBK k7PeXMAkcUtFiwBiA0480HYI/LyhYs64Izp2bCRRpFoiAiSuxCv3WzsCAgRuzsx/orNr n2jA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxDlI9SCruElUH5jeSOsQIpS9GoUbXWywLzT7JnoTsLJEDaG+WI TmKOe+2gYhRB+SmikbE/f56GHw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFuZ/Xl9orkksBCLNBYbAshz/Fc0JxwRZy2CFVCVkCh/3bCgDHH+Tyd7MT4jm+3S7F/WzFf4Q== X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:111:b0:27d:61ff:3d3b with SMTP id p17-20020a17090b011100b0027d61ff3d3bmr19661982pjz.38.1699050808400; Fri, 03 Nov 2023 15:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from orion.rgrjr.com ([2600:1700:7c2c:e000::22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i93-20020a17090a3de600b00280cd18c161sm1744431pjc.53.2023.11.03.15.33.27 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 03 Nov 2023 15:33:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Bob Rogers In-Reply-To: <87edh6h92o.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::636; envelope-from=rogers@rgrjr.com; helo=mail-pl1-x636.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -57 X-Spam_score: -5.8 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.938, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312181 Archived-At: From: Emanuel Berg Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2023 21:32:15 +0100 Bob Rogers wrote: >> So let's hear it then, what is it that sets Emacs 18 Elisp >> apart from Emacs 30 Elisp . . . > > Briefly, it's now a much larger language . . . > >> and how is the Emacs 30 Elisp less coherent than the Emacs >> 18 Elisp? > > . . . and the additions have come from diverse sources . . . I understand that it has expanded in size, this is the nature of technology systems in general and perhaps even more so with Lisp programming, since it is so easy and fun to do. But, just to point out the obvious, Emacs Lisp is unusual in that the language and the application are inseparable. In other language systems (e.g. Python, Perl) the language, the application, and packages used to build the application (even when distributed as part of the language) are all distinct; in Emacs the boundaries are much fuzzier, undoubtedly another consequence of Lisp. But I am still uncertain how this has changed the style and reduced the coherence of Elisp. I'm sorry I'm apparently unable to be more concrete about explaining my impressions. Part of this is due to the elapsed time. ISTR that, when I started reading Elisp in the mid-90's, it had a "retro" feel compared to the other Lisps I was using. As time went on, I've had to hit C-h f more and more to understand what was going on, not only for language features (pcase has been mentioned), but for editing features like indirect buffers and overlays as they were added -- not strictly part of the language, but again, where's do you draw the boundary? (I've also had to read more C code to follow what's going on, but that's a separate issue.) Case in point, I don't see any such difference when I look at cl-lib.el? -- underground experts united https://dataswamp.org/~incal Between cl-lib.el and what? -- Bob