From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Rogers Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:47:29 -0700 Message-ID: <25914.49745.111873.734458@orion.rgrjr.com> References: <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <831qdlpoye.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf5xhnym.fsf@gnu.org> <871qdhk49w.fsf@dataswamp.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12655"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Emanuel Berg Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 26 21:49:02 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6Ll-00033m-Fr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 21:49:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6KO-0000eC-3t; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:47:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6KN-0000cW-9T for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:47:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pl1-x629.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::629]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qw6KK-0006wC-Tw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 15:47:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pl1-x629.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-1c9e95aa02dso9754965ad.0 for ; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:47:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rgrjr-com.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1698349650; x=1698954450; darn=gnu.org; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=x/9YY0qY/KJ47Gvv0ps9jF/4/Rk7EfGvhERRif/na9Q=; b=Ttl6mrJhaEKYX8WxrIWS19ndZe+1+Yww6LFix2ZAu/S7A7CQzo/RLaMYFpCyaVUHTi W73lVvQ1wK2AqoC4a2RqUHBl0kbIT6ajW8XTtssMPqONnX7eRIUELW32gAhe2K1gY7el fVlwa6+HenodbUbkjSejstPMOAe1gpg3JhjYDOlTVHsar+zGsPethLBhoIFdBVL7OGbb tm19yuhueiPZQluP/lpheWu9f3+iWlpQaARwC+BScJedbNNRVs1Keb+6aDsf4BZjbhWj H6swGYwNigYuIbTuZjuMyBzSN0d9No8ypIwEvkZY9oqP1wrSd7gyaQC9SJnB0ecw9szT eLNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698349650; x=1698954450; h=references:in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:date:message-id :content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:from:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=x/9YY0qY/KJ47Gvv0ps9jF/4/Rk7EfGvhERRif/na9Q=; b=aMQOSc4PmRoQ0La19DWG/NJL0rBK5G+8iX42g5N0KfnOoRhANB/saz9xBrRCys8FYy n8pdu42pQsl9P+Z7vTonsFQmncpDfSIcQW81KQj1iPU2viUcg9z6YVk6qdRWjHhJvg1F pM5EPNOsuLcE3Jqasj+qjeumHk/JTIBAKHoSQ9VJG2ApSi2fYuR2juDHYZrfBpGGkH1A MU1FRxo7YD/7faK4cpwYGH7ovL4hdbzpM+7IG6BNQdidvmD+0tQnbmpLoGU5Qg/EzqFC jEEZlj8h+RBtcaE+MSAhOgm//l79w8CJqcPdhz8JhxNN8ZAwqqT2IZ/64o0/bOwI/LQQ caaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyGaNbZ2+626UCTQ2I8v73ozm23okNxxz+MkOy6B9Bo0PusfaZb M5NlmJWfBF5r+xVnkbgaw+qtOA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHAaPBd3LqXk8hHmDje5mT7WbpaXxzjC4zWPp4YiocUL7sAmnPF3vsQMCCPx9ydO5f2LqAwYg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:181:b0:1c5:7d49:570e with SMTP id z1-20020a170903018100b001c57d49570emr942825plg.29.1698349650418; Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from orion.rgrjr.com ([2600:1700:7c2c:e000::22]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z13-20020a1709027e8d00b001c5f77e23a8sm66822pla.73.2023.10.26.12.47.29 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 26 Oct 2023 12:47:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Original-From: Bob Rogers In-Reply-To: <871qdhk49w.fsf@dataswamp.org> X-Mailer: VM 8.2.0b under 30.0.50 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::629; envelope-from=rogers@rgrjr.com; helo=mail-pl1-x629.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -51 X-Spam_score: -5.2 X-Spam_bar: ----- X-Spam_report: (-5.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-3.339, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311917 Archived-At: From: Emanuel Berg Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2023 13:32:43 +0200 Alan Mackenzie wrote: . . . > Note that Common Lisp never took off as a popular language. There > must be reasons for this. Maintaining it is too difficult? Even before CL, Lisp systems tended to be memory-hungry. Common Lisp was designed as a large language, for a future where memory would be cheap. That future eventually came, but before it came the PC boom, when tiny systems with relatively tiny amounts of RAM ruled the roost. And Lisp was neglected even on more powerful workstations; some of you will rememeber the Sun Sparcstation Pmeg problem that caused page table thrashing if you tried to allocate more than 16MB. (This is an over- simplification for why Lisp popularity declined, of course.) This complexity and the resulting complications, I believe, are what Richard was trying to avoid when he designed Emacs Lisp to be a simpler dialect of Lisp, and why he sees cl-lib.el as a trojan horse that is changing Emacs Lisp. (And why I hope this bit of history is not quite off-topic.) -- Bob Rogers http://www.rgrjr.com/