bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

I'm regularly seeing what I type getting garbled when I'm typing a
message in mail-mode. I'm not sure that it's mail mode that is
responsible but that's where I'm doing most typing these days. At first
I thought it was age and lack of coordination but I think that's
unlikely.

Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)

Typically none of *this* message came out garbled but it's a more or less daily
event.

C-h l probably needs checking next time if there's no other obvious causes.

Robert


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.30, cairo version 1.16.0)
 of 2022-07-28 built on poulenc
Repository revision: 5999dc1cd925ddf8af0b893432124af7904a6918
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101003
System Description: Ubuntu 22.04.1 LTS

Configured using:
 'configure --with-xpm=ifavailable'

Configured features:
CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG LCMS2
LIBSELINUX LIBSYSTEMD LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG
SECCOMP SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM
XINPUT2 XPM GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Group

Minor modes in effect:
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  gnus-topic-mode: t
  cursor-sensor-mode: t
  gnus-undo-mode: t
  global-hi-lock-mode: t
  hi-lock-mode: t
  recentf-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
/home/robert/elisp/dired-async hides /home/robert/.emacs.d/elpa/async-20191030.2138/dired-async
/home/robert/elisp/async hides /home/robert/.emacs.d/elpa/async-20191030.2138/async
/home/robert/.emacs.d/elpa/transient-20191115.1356/transient hides /home/robert/emacs-git/new/emacs/lisp/transient

Features:
(shadow emacsbug help-fns radix-tree vm-digest org-element avl-tree
ol-eww eww xdg mm-url ol-rmail ol-mhe ol-irc ol-info ol-gnus nnselect
ol-docview ol-bibtex ol-bbdb ol-w3m ol-doi org-link-doi org ob
ob-tangle ob-ref ob-lob ob-table ob-exp org-macro org-footnote org-src
ob-comint org-pcomplete org-list org-faces org-entities noutline
outline icons org-version ob-emacs-lisp ob-core ob-eval org-table
oc-basic bibtex ol org-keys oc org-compat org-macs org-loaddefs
format-spec find-func doc-view filenotify jka-compr dabbrev conf-mode
canlock bbdb-message footnote rx etags fileloop generator xref project
pcmpl-unix files-x eimp easy-mmode image-mode exif smtpmail flyspell
ispell gnus-fun vm-mark shell pcomplete comint ring bookmark flow-fill
thingatpt dired-aux url-queue url-cache shr-color color misearch
multi-isearch pp mm-archive mule-util sort smiley ansi-color gnus-cite
mail-extr textsec uni-scripts idna-mapping ucs-normalize
uni-confusable textsec-check gnus-bcklg qp cl-extra help-mode
gnus-async gnus-ml disp-table gnus-topic cursor-sensor nndraft nnmh
nnfolder gnus-agent gnus-srvr gnus-score score-mode nnvirtual gnus-msg
gnus-cache bbdb-gnus network-stream nntp bbdb-vm bbdb-mua bbdb-com crm
vm-pine gnus-art mm-uu mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime gnutls dig
gnus-sum shr pixel-fill kinsoku url-file url-dired svg dom gnus-group
gnus-undo gnus-start gnus-dbus dbus gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail
mail-source utf7 netrc nnoo gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message
yank-media dired-x dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived
epg rfc6068 epg-config mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailabbrev
gmm-utils mailheader gnus-win gnus nnheader gnus-util
text-property-search range bbdb bbdb-site timezone sendmail mail-utils
vm-rfaddons vm-reply vm-imap vm-save vm-virtual vm-summary-faces
vm-delete vm-pop vm-undo vm-sort vm-thread vm-mime vm-toolbar vm-menu
tapestry vm-window vm-folder vm-crypto vm-summary vm-mouse vm-page
vm-motion vm-minibuf vm-message vm-misc vm-macro vm-autoloads vm-vars
vm-version vm twittering-mode advice identica-mode url-http url-auth
mail-parse rfc2231 rfc2047 rfc2045 mm-util ietf-drums mail-prsvr
url-gw nsm puny longlines parse-time iso8601 time-date xml cl
cal-china lunar solar cal-dst cal-bahai cal-islam cal-hebrew holidays
holiday-loaddefs diary-lib diary-loaddefs cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs server tbemail org-install hi-lock desktop frameset
recentf tree-widget wid-edit bbdb-loaddefs finder-inf info package
browse-url url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods
url-history url-cookie generate-lisp-file url-domsuf url-util mailcap
url-handlers url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs
password-cache json subr-x map byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile cconv
url-vars cl-loaddefs cl-lib rmc iso-transl tooltip eldoc paren
electric uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode
mwheel term/x-win x-win term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset
image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode
lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch
easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple
cl-generic indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang
vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932
hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic
chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button
loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties overlay
sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads dbusbind inotify lcms2
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting cairo
move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty make-network-process
emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 1832482 191279)
 (symbols 48 89735 176)
 (strings 32 644772 24983)
 (string-bytes 1 16723612)
 (vectors 16 246743)
 (vector-slots 8 3501871 289210)
 (floats 8 1190 868)
 (intervals 56 164722 672)
 (buffers 992 72))

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> I'm regularly seeing what I type getting garbled when I'm typing a
> message in mail-mode. I'm not sure that it's mail mode that is
> responsible but that's where I'm doing most typing these days. At first
> I thought it was age and lack of coordination but I think that's
> unlikely.
>
> Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
> text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
> Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
> the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
> discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)
>
> Typically none of *this* message came out garbled but it's a more or less daily
> event.

Is Emacs otherwise responsive to non-keyboard input during the wedge
preceeding the ``wodge''?  One way to find out is to see if a relief
appears on tool bar buttons if you move your mouse over them during that
period.

Thanks.

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Po Lu writes:
 > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > 
 > > I'm regularly seeing what I type getting garbled when I'm typing a
 > > message in mail-mode. I'm not sure that it's mail mode that is
 > > responsible but that's where I'm doing most typing these days. At first
 > > I thought it was age and lack of coordination but I think that's
 > > unlikely.
 > >
 > > Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
 > > text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
 > > Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
 > > the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
 > > discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)
 > >
 > > Typically none of *this* message came out garbled but it's a more or less daily
 > > event.
 > 
 > Is Emacs otherwise responsive to non-keyboard input during the wedge
 > preceeding the ``wodge''?  One way to find out is to see if a relief
 > appears on tool bar buttons if you move your mouse over them during that
 > period.
 > 

I don't tend to see the scrambling until it's done (: too focussed on
the keyboard! What seems to be the case is that the problem happens
during an auto save - so emacs won't be responsive, when it comes out
of that pause, the letters buffered up appear but not in the correct order. I
have a fairly large INBOX (in vm) that I sometimes don't save for a
bit so auto saving can take a few seconds.

I've just seen it happen in a .tex buffer so it happens in more than
just mail-mode.

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 58135@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 15:44:50 +0000
> From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
> 
>  > > Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
>  > > text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
>  > > Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
>  > > the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
>  > > discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)
>  > >
>  > > Typically none of *this* message came out garbled but it's a more or less daily
>  > > event.
>  > 
>  > Is Emacs otherwise responsive to non-keyboard input during the wedge
>  > preceeding the ``wodge''?  One way to find out is to see if a relief
>  > appears on tool bar buttons if you move your mouse over them during that
>  > period.
>  > 
> 
> I don't tend to see the scrambling until it's done (: too focussed on
> the keyboard! What seems to be the case is that the problem happens
> during an auto save - so emacs won't be responsive, when it comes out
> of that pause, the letters buffered up appear but not in the correct order. I
> have a fairly large INBOX (in vm) that I sometimes don't save for a
> bit so auto saving can take a few seconds.

Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
well?

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Eli Zaretskii writes:
 > > Cc: 58135@debbugs.gnu.org
 > > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2022 15:44:50 +0000
 > > From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
 > > 
 > >  > > Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
 > >  > > text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
 > >  > > Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
 > >  > > the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
 > >  > > discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)
 > >  > >
 > >  > > Typically none of *this* message came out garbled but it's a more or less daily
 > >  > > event.
 > >  > 
 > >  > Is Emacs otherwise responsive to non-keyboard input during the wedge
 > >  > preceeding the ``wodge''?  One way to find out is to see if a relief
 > >  > appears on tool bar buttons if you move your mouse over them during that
 > >  > period.
 > >  > 
 > > 
 > > I don't tend to see the scrambling until it's done (: too focussed on
 > > the keyboard! What seems to be the case is that the problem happens
 > > during an auto save - so emacs won't be responsive, when it comes out
 > > of that pause, the letters buffered up appear but not in the correct order. I
 > > have a fairly large INBOX (in vm) that I sometimes don't save for a
 > > bit so auto saving can take a few seconds.
 > 
 > Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
 > save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
 > well?
 > 

I saved a buffer containing garbled "r dehsangul ce" - I typed "rules
changed" to a file and the contents of the file were as in the buffer
- so the wrong order was real rather than just being displayed.

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:08:59 +0000
> From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com,
>     58135@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> 
> Eli Zaretskii writes:
>  > Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
>  > save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
>  > well?
>  > 
> 
> I saved a buffer containing garbled "r dehsangul ce" - I typed "rules
> changed" to a file and the contents of the file were as in the buffer
> - so the wrong order was real rather than just being displayed.

That would mean something really changes the input events that Emacs
receives.  Does "C-h l" after this happens indeed shows the characters
in the wrong order?

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:08:59 +0000
>> From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
>> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com,
>>     58135@debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii writes:
>>  > Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
>>  > save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
>>  > well?
>>  > 
>> 
>> I saved a buffer containing garbled "r dehsangul ce" - I typed "rules
>> changed" to a file and the contents of the file were as in the buffer
>> - so the wrong order was real rather than just being displayed.
>
> That would mean something really changes the input events that Emacs
> receives.  Does "C-h l" after this happens indeed shows the characters
> in the wrong order?

And if it does, would you please try turning off input method support,
by running Emacs like so:

  emacs (other options here) -xrm 'Emacs.useXIM: off'

the extra layers of indirection involved in ferrying events to and fro
the input method may be causing this problem, and narrowing it down to
the input method would make it easier to debug.

Thanks.

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Po Lu writes:
 > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
 > 
 > >> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:08:59 +0000
 > >> From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
 > >> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com,
 > >>     58135@debbugs.gnu.org
 > >> 
 > >> 
 > >> Eli Zaretskii writes:
 > >>  > Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
 > >>  > save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
 > >>  > well?
 > >>  > 
 > >> 
 > >> I saved a buffer containing garbled "r dehsangul ce" - I typed "rules
 > >> changed" to a file and the contents of the file were as in the buffer
 > >> - so the wrong order was real rather than just being displayed.
 > >
 > > That would mean something really changes the input events that Emacs
 > > receives.  Does "C-h l" after this happens indeed shows the characters
 > > in the wrong order?

That's correct - view-lossage gives the garbled version

> 
 > And if it does, would you please try turning off input method support,
 > by running Emacs like so:
 > 
 >   emacs (other options here) -xrm 'Emacs.useXIM: off'
 > 
 > the extra layers of indirection involved in ferrying events to and fro
 > the input method may be causing this problem, and narrowing it down to
 > the input method would make it easier to debug.

Is that likely to cause the problem to disappear, the issue is only
seen c every 4-5 days so if I don't see it in say 2 weeks I should
report back to that effect?

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Po Lu writes:
 > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
 > 
 > >> Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 11:08:59 +0000
 > >> From: Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk>
 > >> Cc: luangruo@yahoo.com,
 > >>     58135@debbugs.gnu.org
 > >> 
 > >> 
 > >> Eli Zaretskii writes:
 > >>  > Is the wrong order real, or just on display?  IOW, what happens if you
 > >>  > save the buffer to a file -- do you see the wrong order in the file as
 > >>  > well?
 > >>  > 
 > >> 
 > >> I saved a buffer containing garbled "r dehsangul ce" - I typed "rules
 > >> changed" to a file and the contents of the file were as in the buffer
 > >> - so the wrong order was real rather than just being displayed.
 > >
 > > That would mean something really changes the input events that Emacs
 > > receives.  Does "C-h l" after this happens indeed shows the characters
 > > in the wrong order?
 > 
 > And if it does, would you please try turning off input method support,
 > by running Emacs like so:
 > 
 >   emacs (other options here) -xrm 'Emacs.useXIM: off'
 > 
 > the extra layers of indirection involved in ferrying events to and fro
 > the input method may be causing this problem, and narrowing it down to
 > the input method would make it easier to debug.

I've run emacs with those options for 2+ weeks now and am yet to
see the problem occurring, so that appears to avoid the problem.

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> I've run emacs with those options for 2+ weeks now and am yet to
> see the problem occurring, so that appears to avoid the problem.

Right.  I've forgotten whether or not I've asked this before, so here
goes nothing.  What input method/framework do you use?

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Po Lu writes:
 > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > 
 > > I've run emacs with those options for 2+ weeks now and am yet to
 > > see the problem occurring, so that appears to avoid the problem.
 > 
 > Right.  I've forgotten whether or not I've asked this before, so here
 > goes nothing.  What input method/framework do you use?
 > 

C-h C-\ gives me no input method is activated now - and I wasn't aware of setting one

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> Po Lu writes:
>  > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
>  > 
>  > > I've run emacs with those options for 2+ weeks now and am yet to
>  > > see the problem occurring, so that appears to avoid the problem.
>  > 
>  > Right.  I've forgotten whether or not I've asked this before, so here
>  > goes nothing.  What input method/framework do you use?
>  > 
>
> C-h C-\ gives me no input method is activated now - and I wasn't aware of setting one
>
> Robert

No, I meant on your system.  xcin or kinput2 would be examples of such
input method frameworks, and so would I-Bus.

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Po Lu writes:
 > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > 
 > > Po Lu writes:
 > >  > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > >  > 
 > >  > > I've run emacs with those options for 2+ weeks now and am yet to
 > >  > > see the problem occurring, so that appears to avoid the problem.
 > >  > 
 > >  > Right.  I've forgotten whether or not I've asked this before, so here
 > >  > goes nothing.  What input method/framework do you use?
 > >  > 
 > >
 > > C-h C-\ gives me no input method is activated now - and I wasn't aware of setting one
 > >
 > > Robert
 > 
 > No, I meant on your system.  xcin or kinput2 would be examples of such
 > input method frameworks, and so would I-Bus.
 > 

Ah, I'm running from within kde/plasma (in an ubuntu install) and have
ibus

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> Ah, I'm running from within kde/plasma (in an ubuntu install) and have
> ibus

Hmmm.  I don't see that with I-Bus here...  Did you try updating it to a
newer version?

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Oops, didn't reply to all recipients, resending..

Po Lu writes:
 > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > 
 > > Ah, I'm running from within kde/plasma (in an ubuntu install) and have
 > > ibus
 > 
 > Hmmm.  I don't see that with I-Bus here...  Did you try updating it to a
 > newer version?
 > 

ibus version gives me
IBus 1.5.26

which appears pretty recent, I'm on ubuntu 22.04 - the problem also
was present on ubuntu 21.10 which I guess was an earlier
version (or ibus). There needs to be a 2 or 3 second break for emacs to auto
save for the problem to appear - at least for me!

Robert

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> Oops, didn't reply to all recipients, resending..
>
> Po Lu writes:
>  > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
>  > 
>  > > Ah, I'm running from within kde/plasma (in an ubuntu install) and have
>  > > ibus
>  > 
>  > Hmmm.  I don't see that with I-Bus here...  Did you try updating it to a
>  > newer version?
>  > 
>
> ibus version gives me
> IBus 1.5.26
>
> which appears pretty recent, I'm on ubuntu 22.04 - the problem also
> was present on ubuntu 21.10 which I guess was an earlier
> version (or ibus). There needs to be a 2 or 3 second break for emacs to auto
> save for the problem to appear - at least for me!
>
> Robert

Thanks.  I'm really lost here; if you set `x-gtk-use-native-input' to a
non-nil value, does the problem persist?  If so, it's likely a problem
with I-Bus, as that will make Emacs use I-Bus through an entirely
different interface.

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:

> Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
> text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
> Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
> the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
> discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)

Is this with a graphical Emacs or in a terminal?

bug#58135: 29.0.50; Typing getting garbled in mail-mode

[Robert Marshall]

Lars Ingebrigtsen writes:
 > Robert Marshall <robert@capuchin.co.uk> writes:
 > 
 > > Typically I'm seeing characters not appearing and then the buffered
 > > text appears all at once in a randomised 'wodge'. I've just this morning typed
 > > Matt and ttaM appeared on the screen, I don't think I'd have pressed
 > > the shift key in such a wildly incorrect place.  Another example - "to
 > > discuss?" came out as "tsis?d oucs" (without the quotes)
 > 
 > Is this with a graphical Emacs or in a terminal?
 > 

This is with graphical emacs - not managed to provoke a repeat of the garbling
yet, will respond to Po Lu's qn then!

Robert