From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: CommonLisp namespace system (was Re: adding namespaces to emacs-lisp (better elisp?)) Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 11:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2505b0ad-588b-4be4-ba68-4a5540cd2e70@default> References: <874nbh2z3y.fsf@ferrier.me.uk> <87y58t1cih.fsf_-_@ferrier.me.uk> <194749a2-39c2-47b8-8079-fb14e6843378@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374864844 5914 80.91.229.3 (26 Jul 2013 18:54:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:54:04 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Nic Ferrier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Sebastian Wiesner Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 26 20:54:04 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V2n9P-0001iR-SD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 20:54:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53012 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V2n9P-0000bo-Dt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:54:03 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56748) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V2n9M-0000bj-NR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:54:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V2n9L-0001a4-Od for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:54:00 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41959) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V2n9L-0001Zy-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:53:59 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet22.oracle.com (ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.1) with ESMTP id r6QIrsbA022820 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:53:55 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet22.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r6QIrrCs015274 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:53:54 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt102.oracle.com (abhmt102.oracle.com [141.146.116.54]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id r6QIrrRw020143; Fri, 26 Jul 2013 18:53:53 GMT In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.7 (607090) [OL 12.0.6668.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet22.oracle.com [156.151.31.94] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.4.x-2.6.x [generic] X-Received-From: 156.151.31.81 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:162165 Archived-At: > >> In Emacs world, we use "package" to mean something different from what > >> CL "package" means. > > > > That's a very recent introduction to the "Emacs world". Hardly much of > > a precedent. "In [the] Emacs world" is a pretty bold way of describing > > something we just introduced, as if it were essential to what Emacs Lis= p > > has always been. It is a recent add-on - a welcome one, but hardly cor= e. >=20 > As a developer of Emacs Lisp extensions, I consider package.el a core > addon, no matter how old it is. I think it's the only more or less > sane and comfortable way to distribute Emacs Lisp code, and I see it > being used by many Emacs Lisp developers as primary distribution > channel for their libraries. >=20 > Imho, adding package.el to Emacs has boosted the productivity of the > Emacs community more than any past attempt to make Emacs Lisp more > Common Lisp. Don't waste your breath lauding package.el. No one said the slightest thing against the addition of package.el to Emacs. Quite the contrary. I was clear that it is a welcome addition. And it would be just as welcome if what it calls "package" were called something else. The question raised was only wrt the terminology to use, if we add namespace support to Emacs Lisp. IMO, we should use the same terminology that Common Lisp uses, especially if what we implement in this regard is reasonably close to the Common Lisp package system. Just as we call an obarray an obarray, we should call something close to a Common Lisp package a package. Yes, that would mean changing the terminology we introduced recently with package.el. Too bad. > > And the question here is not about abandoning package.el etc. It is > > about the terminology: "package". Who heard of Emacs "packages" a few > > years ago? Contrast that with who had heard of Common Lisp "packages". >=20 > That's a bold saying, too. I doubt that even Common Lisp itself has > much relevance to many Emacs users. I doubt even that it's known to > many. Counting among "Emacs users" for such things would be quite misleading indeed. Counting among Emacs Lisp users would be more relevant. And if some Emacs Lisp users have no knowledge of the existence of Common Lisp then it is truly too bad for them. IMO, other things being equal, Common Lisp should be a model toward which Emacs Lisp aims. As Stefan put it: "all else being equal, it's better to do the same as Common-Lisp (or as Scheme) than to invent our own." (I would drop the "(or as Scheme)" for cases where that would conflict with Common Lisp. But otherwise, sure: or as Scheme.)