* run-with-timer does not display message @ 2014-07-15 13:47 Matthias Pfeifer 2014-07-15 13:53 ` Thorsten Jolitz [not found] ` <mailman.5455.1405432451.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthias Pfeifer @ 2014-07-15 13:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Hi there, this may be a dump question but i could not find a good reason why it should not work as expected... I try to write a message to the messages buffer at some time in the future via run-with-timer (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) however messge buffer does not get the message. Hints welcome... thanks in advance. Matthias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 13:47 run-with-timer does not display message Matthias Pfeifer @ 2014-07-15 13:53 ` Thorsten Jolitz 2014-07-18 16:26 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5631.1405701027.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.5455.1405432451.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Thorsten Jolitz @ 2014-07-15 13:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Matthias Pfeifer <mpfeifer77@gmail.com> writes: > Hi there, > > this may be a dump question but i could not find a good reason why it > should not work as expected... > > I try to write a message to the messages buffer at some time in the future > via run-with-timer > > (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) > > however messge buffer does not get the message. Hints welcome... works for me using M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) ,---- | [nil 21445 12740 521048 nil (lambda nil (message "hello")) nil nil | 860000] | | hello `---- -- cheers, Thorsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 13:53 ` Thorsten Jolitz @ 2014-07-18 16:26 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5631.1405701027.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-18 16:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs >> (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) > M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) Please don't quote your lambdas! Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5631.1405701027.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-18 21:34 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-19 15:09 ` Sebastian Wiesner [not found] ` <mailman.5686.1405782584.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-18 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > Please don't quote your lambdas! Do you mean in that case or never? I have had problems with lambdas and both parameters and `let' bindings. For example, this works but not without the backtick/backquote (and the commas): (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) (global-set-key (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) `(lambda () (interactive) (do-show-file (format "%s%s" ,file-prefix ,file)) ))) And, at least (equal '(1 2 3) `(1 2 3)) => t (equal '(1 2) `(1 2 3)) => nil But I believe you, of course, just if you could elaborate some... -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-18 21:34 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-19 15:09 ` Sebastian Wiesner 2014-07-19 15:27 ` Eli Zaretskii [not found] ` <mailman.5686.1405782584.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-07-19 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg; +Cc: help-gnu-emacs Am 18.07.2014 um 23:34 schrieb Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se>: > Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > >> Please don't quote your lambdas! > > Do you mean in that case or never? > > I have had problems with lambdas and both parameters > and `let' bindings. Enable lexical-binding in your Emacs Lisp files to avoid these. See https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Lexical-Binding.html and https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Using-Lexical-Binding.html for details. > For example, this works but not without the > backtick/backquote (and the commas): With lexical binding it does. > (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) > (global-set-key > (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) > `(lambda () > (interactive) > (do-show-file (format "%s%s" ,file-prefix ,file)) ))) With lexical binding it works without any quoting: (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) (global-set-key (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) (lambda () (interactive) (do-show-file (format "%s%s" file-prefix file))))) The arguments are captured in a closure, and thus preserved when the lambda body is evaluated. This is more efficient than your variant. Lexical bindings are generally more efficient than dynamic ones, because local variables can be elided entirely, and the byte compiler can now inspect and byte-compile the lambda form. It’s also safer, because the byte compiler can now warn you about unused variables or free variables, which helps you to catch misspelled variable names. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-19 15:09 ` Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-07-19 15:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-19 17:08 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5702.1405789759.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-19 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > From: Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com> > Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2014 17:09:32 +0200 > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org > > > (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) > > (global-set-key > > (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) > > `(lambda () > > (interactive) > > (do-show-file (format "%s%s" ,file-prefix ,file)) ))) > > With lexical binding it works without any quoting: > > (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) > (global-set-key > (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) > (lambda () > (interactive) > (do-show-file (format "%s%s" file-prefix file))))) I don't think Stefan meant backtick-type of quoting. He meant this: > M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) ^^^^^^^^ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-19 15:27 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2014-07-19 17:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-19 18:04 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <mailman.5702.1405789759.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-19 17:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > I don't think Stefan meant backtick-type of quoting. He meant this: >> M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) > ^^^^^^^^ Indeed. Of course, it's also good to avoid backquoting lambdas (typically by using lexical-binding instead), but I'm focusing on trying to kill the nasty '(lambda ...) habit that people keep reproducing all over the place because it appears in so many examples. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* RE: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-19 17:08 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-19 18:04 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-19 18:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier, help-gnu-emacs > >> M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) > > ^^^^^^^^ > > I'm focusing on trying to kill the nasty '(lambda ...) habit that > people keep reproducing all over the place because it appears in > so many examples. And we might as well say *why* it should be killed: When you quote a lambda form, the code simply creates a *list* (whose car is `lambda' etc.) when it is evaluated. That list can then be interpreted as a function (or not, depending on the context - it is just a list). But if you do not quote, then the lambda form is understood immediately as being a *function*. And that means that occurrences of that function can be byte-compiled etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5702.1405789759.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-19 17:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-19 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-19 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: >> I don't think Stefan meant backtick-type of quoting. >> He meant this: >> >> M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda ... > > Indeed. Yes, of course I understood that because that was the only quoting going on. That's why I supplied the `equal' example that seems to indicate that quoting and backticking (without commas) are equal (?). Here is what I remember from this - I'm shooting from the holster (a bit) here, feel free to correct misconceptions/-assumptions: OK, dynamic scope is when everything is looked up only when needed, that's the dynamic (time) thing to it, because things can be different at different times. This is what makes the whole dynamic environment in Emacs possible which, by comparison, makes even cool languages like C a pain to work with for large, interactive systems... Lexical scope is when things are encoded once and then they don't change because they are passed around as they are. Because they can be encoded different things it makes sense calling this lexical (because the value is simply read, not looked up) and not "static". This corresponds to an extent to call-by-value/call-by-reference, and in compiled languages there are super-advanced use of pointers and heap data structures to make up for the lack of "the dynamic". Questions: 1. How do I put Emacs in lexical mode? Do I do that temporarily (?!) with a Elisp block around certain code? Or is it a global option? If so, won't that screw up everything else in unpredictable ways? Also, isn't there some hybrid mode where this gets sorted out in the background? 2. Interestingly, what I can see, my method, with backticks and commas, isn't that "lexical" - because then, there, the actual values are inserted? -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-19 17:43 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-19 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-19 20:06 ` Lexical and Dynamic Scope Robert Thorpe 2014-07-20 12:15 ` run-with-timer does not display message Sebastian Wiesner ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-19 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Because they can be encoded different things it makes sense calling > this lexical (because the value is simply read, not looked up) and not > "static". It's also called "static scoping". And the name doesn't have much to do with the implementation technique used. It's called "lexical" because the way a particular identifier use is matched to a particular variable only depends on the shape of the program text rather than depending on its run-time behavior. > This corresponds to an extent to > call-by-value/call-by-reference, No. CBV/CBR/CBN are orthogonal concepts to static/dynamic scoping. > 1. How do I put Emacs in lexical mode? Do I do that Put -*- lexical-binding:t -*- somewhere on the first line of your Elisp file. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Lexical and Dynamic Scope 2014-07-19 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-19 20:06 ` Robert Thorpe 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Robert Thorpe @ 2014-07-19 20:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: >> Because they can be encoded different things it makes sense calling >> this lexical (because the value is simply read, not looked up) and not >> "static". > > It's also called "static scoping". And the name doesn't have much to do > with the implementation technique used. It's called "lexical" because > the way a particular identifier use is matched to a particular variable > only depends on the shape of the program text rather than depending on > its run-time behavior. I'll elaborate a bit.... What we're talking about here is where variables are visible. How those variables behave is a different question. They could only hold one type (classical static typing), hold a set of types or hold any type ("dynamic" typing) depending on the language. Most languages have lexical scope. The scope of a variable is defined by a part of the program text. For example, a variable Bar is defined in a function Foo. That means Bar is visible within Foo only. The section of text defines where variables can be accessed, that's why it's called "lexical" or "static". There can be multiple levels of lexical scoping, for example in C some variables are visible everywhere in a file. One way of thinking about it is by thinking of a stack. The current lexical area and everything defined in it is the top of the stack. When the code exits that area that place on the stack disappears (it's popped). When a function call occurs a new entry on top of the stack is created (a push). Dynamic scope means that visibility follows code execution. If a variable Baz is defined by code executed in the past then it's visible by present code. If a local variable called Baz is defined then it's used instead of the more global one. The "higher level" value continues to exist. This can be thought of using stacks too, in a slightly different way. In the dynamic case there's a stack for every *variable name*. If a local variable is defined for a name that's already used then a new value is pushed on the stack of variable values and removed when the local area ends. Stefan and the Emacs maintainers added lexical scope because it makes Emacs Lisp faster and it's simpler to understand. BR, Rob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-19 17:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-19 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-20 12:15 ` Sebastian Wiesner 2014-07-21 13:26 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5708.1405793578.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.5754.1405858540.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-07-20 12:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs; +Cc: Emanuel Berg Am Samstag, 19. Juli 2014, 19:43:16 schrieb Emanuel Berg: > 2. Interestingly, what I can see, my method, with > backticks and commas, isn't that "lexical" - because > then, there, the actual values are inserted? Note quite. The backquote is “static” in that it captures the *value* of the variable at the time the backquote is evaluated. “Lexical” binding captures the *variable itself*. This makes a difference if the variable is changed after capturing. Considering the following example: ELISP> (let ((i 10)) (setq f-lexical (lambda () i)) (setq f-backquote `(lambda () ,i)) (setq i 20)) 20 (#o24, #x14, ?\C-t) ELISP> (funcall f-lexical) 20 (#o24, #x14, ?\C-t) ELISP> (funcall f-backquote) 10 (#o12, #xa, ?\C-j) As you can see, changing "i" *after* creating the functions only affects the closure created by lexical binding. The function created by the backquote is left untouched. This specific behaviour is what makes lexical binding special: Capturing *lexical variables* in closures, as opposed to capturing values (by backquotes) or just using dynamic variables. You cannot easily and efficiently emulated this behaviour with macros and backquotes. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-20 12:15 ` run-with-timer does not display message Sebastian Wiesner @ 2014-07-21 13:26 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-21 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > This specific behaviour is what makes lexical binding special: Capturing > *lexical variables* in closures, as opposed to capturing values (by > backquotes) While this is used occasionally, most uses of lexical-scoping don't care about this "feature". E.g. *all* uses of lexical scoping in the ML family of languages (which don't have the equivalent of `setq'). > or just using dynamic variables. You cannot easily and > efficiently emulated this behaviour with macros and backquotes. As mentioned in another message, the byte-compiler faces the same problem. And the way it solves it can be applied to backquoted lambdas just as easily: just replace the variable with a cons cell whose `car' contains the value. IOW the byte-compiler will generate almost 100% exactly the same code for (let ((i 10)) (setq f-lexical (lambda () i)) (setq i 20)) as for (let ((i (list 10))) (setq f-lexical (lambda () (car i))) (setcar i 20)) and of course you can get the same result with backquote: (let ((i (list 10))) (setq f-lexical `(lambda () (car ',i))) (setcar i 20)) -- Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5708.1405793578.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 19:27 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 13:29 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5813.1405950328.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: >> Because they can be encoded different things it >> makes sense calling this lexical (because the value >> is simply read, not looked up) and not "static". > > It's also called "static scoping". And the name > doesn't have much to do with the implementation > technique used. It's called "lexical" because the way > a particular identifier use is matched to a particular > variable only depends on the shape of the program text > rather than depending on its run-time behavior. > > ... > > No. CBV/CBR/CBN are orthogonal concepts to > static/dynamic scoping. Isn't CBR and dynamic alike in the sense than a value is looked up somewhere outside of the "scope", say a function in C, while CBV is lexical as the parameter is just a way to refer to a value for convenience? I don't know what CBN (call by name?) is but that in the above sense would be dynamic as the name, once put to use, is replaced by a value and that value has to be looked up at that time. If a reference is used as a reference, i.e., ignoring what it refers to, then of course it is all the same. It has to be looked up but otherwise why do it at all? >> 1. How do I put Emacs in lexical mode? Do I do that > > Put -*- lexical-binding:t -*- somewhere on the first > line of your Elisp file. So you can't do it for a specific function? I'm starting to lean toward me preferring the backtick-comma solution... -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-20 19:27 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 13:29 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5813.1405950328.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-21 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs >>> 1. How do I put Emacs in lexical mode? Do I do that >> Put -*- lexical-binding:t -*- somewhere on the first >> line of your Elisp file. > So you can't do it for a specific function? No. > I'm starting to lean toward me preferring the backtick-comma > solution... 99.9% of existing dynamically scoped Emacs Lisp will work just as well with lexical-binding. And the remaining 0.1% can usually be fixed very easily by adding a few (defvar <myvar>). Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5813.1405950328.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 22:17 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-24 8:25 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 22:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > 99.9% of existing dynamically scoped Emacs Lisp will > work just as well with lexical-binding. And the > remaining 0.1% can usually be fixed very easily by > adding a few (defvar <myvar>). Do you think lexical scope is better for general purposes and the Joe Elisp Hacker? -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-21 22:17 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-24 8:25 ` Stefan Monnier 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2014-07-24 8:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > Do you think lexical scope is better for general > purposes and the Joe Elisp Hacker? Absolutely. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5754.1405858540.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-20 19:37 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 20:11 ` Drew Adams 2014-07-20 21:28 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example (was: Re: run-with-timer does not display message) Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com> writes: >> 2. Interestingly, what I can see, my method, with >> backticks and commas, isn't that "lexical" - because >> then, there, the actual values are inserted? > > Note quite. The backquote is “static” in that it > captures the *value* of the variable at the time the > backquote is evaluated. “Lexical” binding captures > the *variable itself*. Yes, the backtick-comma is to downright hard-code it, although it is code, and not a human, who do the hard-coding... > This makes a difference if the variable is changed > after capturing. Considering the following example > ... > > As you can see, changing "i" *after* creating the > functions only affects the closure created by lexical > binding. The function created by the backquote is > left untouched. Yes, that is clear, but this example shows (to me) the difference between using hard-coded values and using variables (in general). That example looks all-fine to me. Are you saying, with dynamic scope, the `i' in the lambda wouldn't have been affected by the `setq'? But to me, your example is the way it should be, natural... Why then, would you want to use dynamic scope, and why is it the default? -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* RE: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-20 19:37 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 20:11 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-20 20:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emanuel Berg, help-gnu-emacs > Why...would you want to use dynamic scope, and why is it the default? RMS replied to your question (a quarter-century before you posed it): http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC17 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example (was: Re: run-with-timer does not display message) [not found] ` <mailman.5754.1405858540.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 19:37 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 21:28 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 4:44 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example Thien-Thi Nguyen ` (3 more replies) 1 sibling, 4 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-20 21:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs As always, I think it is easier to discuss in terms of an example... This function is what started it all: (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) "Make shortcut with key KEY-PREFIX KEY to FILE-PREFIX FILE." (global-set-key (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) `(lambda () (interactive) (do-show-file (format "%s%s" ,file-prefix ,file)) ))) Is this correct? In dynamic scope: 1. At the 4th line, the line that starts with `format', we see use of the arguments to the parameters `key-prefix' and `key' - because they are inside the defun, it is clear that those refer the the arguments passed as parameters. 2. At the 7th, last line, `file-prefix' and `file' appears. Those are preceded by commas so, in combination with the backtick, their values will be inserted - hard-coded. This bypasses the whole problem because it eliminates all evaluation of symbols (it is like Caesar and the Gordian knot). The drawback is that the lambda can't be byte-compiled as it is formally "just" a list. 3. If the lambda wasn't backticked and shot with commas, the defun would evaluate fine and even calling it wouldn't raise an error. However, when the keystroke was actually hit, the lambda wouldn't be within the defun anymore - it would be in the wild, and `file-prefix' and `file' would be interpreted as symbols, i.e., global variables. Those are probably not defined... but if they were, with `setq' for example, those values would be used (this would make for a total mess). In lexical scope, the backtick and the commas aren't necessary. The lambda can be expressed as a lambda and nothing else, which means it can be byte-compiled. When the symbols are encountered, those aren't looked for as global variables, but rather the history of the place they occurred in code is drilled down, until a scope is encountered where they are defined, and those values are used. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example 2014-07-20 21:28 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example (was: Re: run-with-timer does not display message) Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 4:44 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2014-07-21 6:36 ` Thorsten Jolitz [not found] ` <mailman.5796.1405924598.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 9:23 ` Michael Heerdegen ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2014-07-21 4:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1354 bytes --] () Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> () Sun, 20 Jul 2014 23:28:58 +0200 (defun shortcut-to-file (key-prefix key file-prefix file) "Make shortcut with key KEY-PREFIX KEY to FILE-PREFIX FILE." (global-set-key (format "%s%s" key-prefix key) `(lambda () (interactive) (do-show-file (format "%s%s" ,file-prefix ,file)) ))) Is this correct? It is if it does what the designer desires. :-D I find ‘(format "%s%s" A B)’ unbeautiful, personally. 2. At the 7th, last line, `file-prefix' and `file' appears. Those are preceded by commas so, in combination with the backtick, their values will be inserted - hard-coded. This bypasses the whole problem because it eliminates all evaluation of symbols (it is like Caesar and the Gordian knot). The drawback is that the lambda can't be byte-compiled as it is formally "just" a list. I think using terms "insert" and "hard-coded" is confusing in this context. Also, "eliminated" is imprecise and thus misleading. To bake a cake, do you eliminate the flour? -- Thien-Thi Nguyen GPG key: 4C807502 (if you're human and you know it) read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical) (not (via 'mailing-list))) => nil [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example 2014-07-21 4:44 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2014-07-21 6:36 ` Thorsten Jolitz [not found] ` <mailman.5796.1405924598.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Thorsten Jolitz @ 2014-07-21 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs > (it is like Caesar and the Gordian knot) I think Caesar was a bit late on the party, wasn't that Alexander a few centuries earlier? -- cheers, Thorsten ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example [not found] ` <mailman.5796.1405924598.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 14:08 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Thorsten Jolitz <tjolitz@gmail.com> writes: >> (it is like Caesar and the Gordian knot) > > I think Caesar was a bit late on the party, wasn't > that Alexander a few centuries earlier? Yeah... I've heard of him, wasn't he president before Lincoln? No, of course, the expression with Caesar is throwing dices with some fatalistic irony to it. It doesn't apply, so let me make up for that: (1+ (random 6)) But... don't you have any comments on the code and the comments? -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example 2014-07-20 21:28 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example (was: Re: run-with-timer does not display message) Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 4:44 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2014-07-21 9:23 ` Michael Heerdegen [not found] ` <mailman.5792.1405917701.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <mailman.5805.1405934637.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 3 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Michael Heerdegen @ 2014-07-21 9:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> writes: > As always, I think it is easier to discuss in terms of > an example... Right, but I think in this case, it's not a good idea to learn that in passing. I really recommend to read some literature about it - this isn't trivial. Both kinds of scope have their rights to exist and their use cases. When I first heard about scope, I though "This does only matter in situations I avoid". But lexical scope in a functional language is a basis of lots of advanced programming techniques. OTOH, dynamic scope is as well imperative to programming in LISP. It's explained e.g. here: http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html There are books easier to read than this, but the chapter about scope is well understandable without reading the rest, I think. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example [not found] ` <mailman.5792.1405917701.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 13:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 17:07 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen [not found] ` <mailman.5826.1405962249.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes: > I find ‘(format "%s%s" A B)’ unbeautiful, personally. OK, how would you do it? > I think using terms "insert" and "hard-coded" is > confusing in this context. Also, "eliminated" is > imprecise and thus misleading. To bake a cake, do > you eliminate the flour? But you understand it, right? I mean, what I mean? The result of the _insertion_ of literal values at the places of the parameters, will result in a function that don't use variables (dynamic or lexical) but _hard-coded_ values - that issue is _eliminated_. Do you think it is correct in terms of technology? Nevertheless, I would be interesting to hear if you have a better way of putting it, as I happen to know you are the only "Emacs beatnik" around? -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example 2014-07-21 13:36 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 17:07 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen [not found] ` <mailman.5826.1405962249.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2014-07-21 17:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1393 bytes --] () Emanuel Berg <embe8573@student.uu.se> () Mon, 21 Jul 2014 15:36:26 +0200 Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes: > I find ‘(format "%s%s" A B)’ unbeautiful, personally. OK, how would you do it? I would make sure A and B are always strings and use ‘concat’. For filenames, i would use ‘(expand-file-name B A)’. > I think using terms "insert" and "hard-coded" is > confusing in this context. Also, "eliminated" is > imprecise and thus misleading. To bake a cake, do > you eliminate the flour? But you understand it, right? I mean, what I mean? If i answer "no", then both of us may be fooling ourselves, but in a safe way. If i answer "yes", then there is only one fool (me), but the foolishness i am capable of is huge. The result of the _insertion_ of literal values at the places of the parameters, will result in a function that don't use variables (dynamic or lexical) but _hard-coded_ values - that issue is _eliminated_. Do you think it is correct in terms of technology? Mu! (See above.) Actually, i'd add "places" and "will result" to my list of confusions. -- Thien-Thi Nguyen GPG key: 4C807502 (if you're human and you know it) read my lisp: (responsep (questions 'technical) (not (via 'mailing-list))) => nil [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example [not found] ` <mailman.5826.1405962249.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 22:11 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 22:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnu.org> writes: > I would make sure A and B are always strings and use > ‘concat’. For filenames, i would use > ‘(expand-file-name B A)’. Do you suggest this because "you should always verify the input"? With `stringp', in this case? If you verify all inputs as a matter of principle I guess `file-exists-p' should be put somewhere as well? And: `expand-file-name' - because it is more portable/safe, replacing tilde with the literal /home/user/ and possibly other housekeeping? Well, all those considerations aren't really an issue as the only person using this will be yours truly and all possible bugs will be found instantly (and without harm) and corrected. `expand-file-name' I'll use as a matter of principle but verifying indata, for all zillion defuns it would be lots of work for catching accidental maluse of the software - does that usually pay off? In my experience, I don't think so. > If i answer "no", then both of us may be fooling > ourselves, but in a safe way. If i answer "yes", > then there is only one fool (me), but the foolishness > i am capable of is huge. > > The result of the _insertion_ of literal values at > the places of the parameters, will result in a > function that don't use variables (dynamic or > lexical) but _hard-coded_ values - that issue is > _eliminated_. > > Do you think it is correct in terms of technology? > > Mu! (See above.) Actually, i'd add "places" and > "will result" to my list of confusions. I know you understand because you have read the code which you understand instantly. Of course English cannot describe the code perfectly, but I bet it didn't add to your confusion. If you know a better way to describe it do tell. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example [not found] ` <mailman.5805.1405934637.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-21 14:02 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-21 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes: > Right, but I think in this case, it's not a good idea > to learn that in passing. I really recommend to read > some literature about it - this isn't trivial. Both > kinds of scope have their rights to exist and their > use cases. > > When I first heard about scope, I though "This does > only matter in situations I avoid". But lexical > scope in a functional language is a basis of lots of > advanced programming techniques. OTOH, dynamic scope > is as well imperative to programming in LISP. > > It's explained e.g. here: > > http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisp.html > > There are books easier to read than this, but the > chapter about scope is well understandable without > reading the rest, I think. Yeah... I read so much. Five years of pitch-black computer science. What do I get? Not a dime in my pocket and only "read the Emacs manual", "read the Elisp manual", read that, read this... Do I go around telling everyone: write code, write code, write code...? No. But the only reason I don't do that is because I know no one or very few would actually do it if I did. Well, let's see if anyone comments on the material in a more applied way... stayed tuned for the next episode of Operation Emacs - the same channel, the same terminal! PS. But thanks again for you other comments that were very helpful. DS. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5686.1405782584.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-19 17:49 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-19 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Sebastian Wiesner <swiesner@lunaryorn.com> writes: > Enable lexical-binding in your Emacs Lisp files to > avoid these ... Thank you for that information and the URLs. Check out my other post if you like. I'll read those links and try to get it to work - of course, it already works, but still, there aren't any advantages that are small enough not to explore. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5455.1405432451.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-15 15:35 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-15 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Thorsten Jolitz <tjolitz@gmail.com> writes: > works for me using > > M-: (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) Yes, works for me as well using the above code and `C-x C-e' or `eval-last-sexp' (which here should be equivalent to `M-:' or `eval-expression'). "hello" appears in the echo area as well as the message buffer. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] <mailman.5454.1405432029.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-15 14:34 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:18 ` jduthen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 14:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Matthias Pfeifer wrote: > Hi there, > > this may be a dump question but i could not find a good reason why it > should not work as expected... > > I try to write a message to the messages buffer at some time in the future > via run-with-timer > > (run-with-timer 5 nil '(lambda () (message "hello"))) > > however messge buffer does not get the message. Hints welcome... messages in the message buffer dissappear as soon as the user interacts with Emacs. Perhaps the message does appear but you press a key so quickly that you don't see it. -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 14:34 ` Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 15:18 ` jduthen 2014-07-15 15:20 ` Joost Kremers 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: jduthen @ 2014-07-15 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Le mardi 15 juillet 2014 16:34:54 UTC+2, Joost Kremers a écrit : > messages in the message buffer dissappear as soon as the user interacts > with Emacs. Perhaps the message does appear but you press a key so > quickly that you don't see it. Have a look at the messages buffer: C-x b *Messages* RET ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 15:18 ` jduthen @ 2014-07-15 15:20 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:40 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <mailman.5461.1405438875.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 0 siblings, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs jduthen@gmail.com wrote: > Le mardi 15 juillet 2014 16:34:54 UTC+2, Joost Kremers a écrit : >> messages in the message buffer dissappear as soon as the user interacts >> with Emacs. Perhaps the message does appear but you press a key so >> quickly that you don't see it. > > Have a look at the messages buffer: C-x b *Messages* RET C-h e -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* RE: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 15:20 ` Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 15:40 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <mailman.5461.1405438875.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-15 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joost Kremers, help-gnu-emacs > > Have a look at the messages buffer: C-x b *Messages* RET > > C-h e Or just click mouse-1 in the echo area (aka inactive minibuffer). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5461.1405438875.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-15 15:52 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:57 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5463.1405440423.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <<slrnlsaji8.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> 1 sibling, 2 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 15:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: >> > Have a look at the messages buffer: C-x b *Messages* RET >> >> C-h e > > Or just click mouse-1 in the echo area (aka inactive minibuffer). .....^^^^.^^^^^ In Emacs, there is nothing "just" about "clicking" a mouse button. :P -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-15 15:52 ` Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 15:57 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5463.1405440423.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 1 sibling, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-15 15:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Joost Kremers <joost.m.kremers@gmail.com> writes: > In Emacs, there is nothing "just" about "clicking" a > mouse button. :P You mean you can actually use the mouse in Emacs? o_O -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5463.1405440423.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-15 16:07 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-15 16:12 ` Joost Kremers [not found] ` <<slrnlsakmh.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> 2 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-15 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes: > Nonsense. It all depends what you are doing at the > time, and whether you use a mouse at all. Users and > use cases differ. > > If you must blather such nonsense, please at least do > not pretend to speak for Emacs ("in Emacs...") when > doing so. > > Emacs is not limited to any particular input > mechanism, whether it be keyboard, mouse, touchpad, > phone, *pad,... And that's a good thing. Yes... I think (know) that was a joke. -- underground experts united ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5463.1405440423.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-15 16:07 ` Emanuel Berg @ 2014-07-15 16:12 ` Joost Kremers [not found] ` <mailman.5466.1405442248.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [not found] ` <<slrnlsakmh.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> 2 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-15 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: >> In Emacs, there is nothing "just" about "clicking" a mouse button. :P > > Nonsense. It all depends what you are doing at the time, and whether > you use a mouse at all. Users and use cases differ. Erm... Note smiley... Apologies if I offended you, I was just making a joke. -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* Re: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <mailman.5466.1405442248.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> @ 2014-07-16 1:12 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-17 10:03 ` Matthias Pfeifer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 42+ messages in thread From: Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-16 1:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Drew Adams wrote: > You don't offend me. Ok. The (IMHO) rather aggressive tone of your reaction suggested otherwise. > You mislead other Emacs users. Perhaps. Personally, though, I think those Emacs users will understand that it's just a joke and therefore either a) a personal opinion offered not as an argument but as an anecdote; or b) a subtle way of ridiculing the very attitude it appears to advocate; or c) a cheeky but ultimately harmless attempt to provoke a reaction. Anyways, I hope the OP got their run-with-timer working. -- Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht EN:SiS(9) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
* Re: run-with-timer does not display message 2014-07-16 1:12 ` Joost Kremers @ 2014-07-17 10:03 ` Matthias Pfeifer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Matthias Pfeifer @ 2014-07-17 10:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: help-gnu-emacs Thanks everybody for your advice. Misteriously it works now... 2014-07-16 3:12 GMT+02:00 Joost Kremers <joost.m.kremers@gmail.com>: > Drew Adams wrote: > > You don't offend me. > > Ok. The (IMHO) rather aggressive tone of your reaction suggested > otherwise. > > > You mislead other Emacs users. > > Perhaps. Personally, though, I think those Emacs users will understand > that it's just a joke and therefore either a) a personal opinion offered > not as an argument but as an anecdote; or b) a subtle way of ridiculing > the very attitude it appears to advocate; or c) a cheeky but ultimately > harmless attempt to provoke a reaction. > > Anyways, I hope the OP got their run-with-timer working. > > > -- > Joost Kremers joostkremers@fastmail.fm > Selbst in die Unterwelt dringt durch Spalten Licht > EN:SiS(9) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
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* RE: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <<slrnlsakmh.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> @ 2014-07-15 16:37 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-15 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joost Kremers, help-gnu-emacs > >> In Emacs, there is nothing "just" about "clicking" a mouse button. :P > > > > Nonsense. It all depends what you are doing at the time, and whether > > you use a mouse at all. Users and use cases differ. > > Erm... Note smiley... Apologies if I offended you, I was just making a > joke. You don't offend me. You mislead other Emacs users. It's good to let users know of alternative behaviors, regardless of whether or when you or I might prefer to use them. It is important that there is not just one Emacs Way. In-Emacs-we-don't-use-a-mouse is not the right message, IMO. Even - or especially - when passed off as a snarky joke. FWIW: Had you written "Click mouse-1 in the echo area" I would likely have added "Or just use `C-h e'". It is good to know about both alternatives - each can be useful. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <<slrnlsaji8.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl>]
* RE: run-with-timer does not display message [not found] ` <<slrnlsaji8.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> @ 2014-07-15 16:06 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 42+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2014-07-15 16:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Joost Kremers, help-gnu-emacs > >> > Have a look at the messages buffer: C-x b *Messages* RET > >> > >> C-h e > > > > Or just click mouse-1 in the echo area (aka inactive minibuffer). > .....^^^^.^^^^^ > > In Emacs, there is nothing "just" about "clicking" a mouse button. :P Nonsense. It all depends what you are doing at the time, and whether you use a mouse at all. Users and use cases differ. If you must blather such nonsense, please at least do not pretend to speak for Emacs ("in Emacs...") when doing so. Emacs is not limited to any particular input mechanism, whether it be keyboard, mouse, touchpad, phone, *pad,... And that's a good thing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 42+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-07-24 8:25 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 42+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2014-07-15 13:47 run-with-timer does not display message Matthias Pfeifer 2014-07-15 13:53 ` Thorsten Jolitz 2014-07-18 16:26 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5631.1405701027.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-18 21:34 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-19 15:09 ` Sebastian Wiesner 2014-07-19 15:27 ` Eli Zaretskii 2014-07-19 17:08 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-19 18:04 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <mailman.5702.1405789759.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-19 17:43 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-19 18:12 ` Stefan Monnier 2014-07-19 20:06 ` Lexical and Dynamic Scope Robert Thorpe 2014-07-20 12:15 ` run-with-timer does not display message Sebastian Wiesner 2014-07-21 13:26 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5708.1405793578.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 19:27 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 13:29 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5813.1405950328.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 22:17 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-24 8:25 ` Stefan Monnier [not found] ` <mailman.5754.1405858540.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-20 19:37 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-20 20:11 ` Drew Adams 2014-07-20 21:28 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example (was: Re: run-with-timer does not display message) Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 4:44 ` dynamic and lexical scope, attempted summary with example Thien-Thi Nguyen 2014-07-21 6:36 ` Thorsten Jolitz [not found] ` <mailman.5796.1405924598.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 14:08 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 9:23 ` Michael Heerdegen [not found] ` <mailman.5792.1405917701.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 13:36 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-21 17:07 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen [not found] ` <mailman.5826.1405962249.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 22:11 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5805.1405934637.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-21 14:02 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5686.1405782584.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-19 17:49 ` run-with-timer does not display message Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5455.1405432451.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-15 15:35 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] <mailman.5454.1405432029.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-15 14:34 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:18 ` jduthen 2014-07-15 15:20 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:40 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <mailman.5461.1405438875.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-15 15:52 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-15 15:57 ` Emanuel Berg [not found] ` <mailman.5463.1405440423.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-15 16:07 ` Emanuel Berg 2014-07-15 16:12 ` Joost Kremers [not found] ` <mailman.5466.1405442248.1147.help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> 2014-07-16 1:12 ` Joost Kremers 2014-07-17 10:03 ` Matthias Pfeifer [not found] ` <<slrnlsakmh.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> 2014-07-15 16:37 ` Drew Adams [not found] ` <<slrnlsaji8.a5k.joost.m.kremers@j.kremers4.news.arnhem.chello.nl> 2014-07-15 16:06 ` Drew Adams
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