From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov.dev>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com, owinebar@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org,
philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Instead of pcase
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 20:28:43 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <241fce6d-fbb6-aa7c-b0b5-5a654eec023d@gutov.dev> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83il5i9e49.fsf@gnu.org>
On 01/12/2023 16:44, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2023 14:48:22 +0200
>> Cc: owinebar@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, philipk@posteo.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov.dev>
>>
>> On 01/12/2023 13:52, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> If this is that easy, then why do we need no less than 120 lines to
>>> describe pcase in the doc string, and no less than 600 lines to
>>> document its features in the ELisp manual?
>>
>> Most of those describe the extensions, or additional features, which are
>> not essential to understanding the basics, to understand the examples
>> which we were looking at in this thread.
>
> This doesn't match the reality.
>
> The node "pcase Macro" holds over 400 lines. The first 145 lines
> describe the various feature of pcase itself. The rest are examples
> and caveats, but the very fact that we decided to have them there
> means that pcase is not easy to understand.
>
> The node "Extending pcase" is indeed about extensions, which is why I
> didn't include its line count in the number above.
>
> The node "Backquote Patterns" is actually part of the pcase
> description in the "pcase Macro" node, and was moved to a separate
> node for methodological and didactic reasons; it holds more than 100
> lines.
>
> The node "Destructuring with pcase Patterns" describes an important
> part of pcase functionality. At least the first 45 lines of it are
> about pcase, even if you consider pcase-let etc. as "extensions".
That just reaffirms my understanding that the main problem with 'pcase'
that we have is documentation. The nodes are written very bottom-up,
whereas what's really needed for someone to understand the core usage,
would look more like the first half of the node "Destructuring with
‘pcase’ Patterns".
> So, even if you want to exclude "extensions and additional features",
> the description takes 145+100+45=290 lines, or 400+100+45=545 if you
> agree that all of the first node is documentation, not "extensions".
> That's quite a lot, and we have all that for a reason: you may
> remember the disputes and several significant edits that this section
> went through, because the original, much shorter text was deemed
> insufficient.
Looks like it's still insufficient.
Jim Porter's suggestions for improving the docs are in a separate thread
("Improving 'pcase' documentation"), it really deserves more attention.
>>> All I'm trying to say is that
>>> there_are_ inherent problems in the DSL whose knowledge is required
>>> to understand code written using pcase, and that you and others should
>>> recognize these inherent problems are real, even though you have
>>> overcome them, and anyone could overcome them given enough time and
>>> experience.
>>
>> Most of us can agree that these DLS have associated costs.
>
> Then we agree. I just attempted to broaden this agreement.
>
>> Whether they are "problems" (to be fixed?), meaning the costs outweigh
>> the benefits, seems to be the main theme of this thread.
>
> You read too much into the words. "Problems" are not necessarily
> something that must be fixed, and "costs" is not necessarily something
> that need not be fixed. Those are basically synonyms in this
> discussion.
Hopefully this clarification can bring most of the argument to a close.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-12-01 18:28 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 342+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-11-16 3:04 Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 7:37 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 17:18 ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 17:44 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:16 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-17 8:54 ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc (was: Instead of pcase) Ihor Radchenko
2023-11-25 4:03 ` Complex SPEC for variables/customization like font-lock-keywords/org-capture-templates/etc Stefan Monnier
2023-11-16 19:19 ` Instead of pcase Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17 8:02 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 18:39 ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:47 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-11-16 18:51 ` T.V Raman
2023-11-18 3:04 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 12:23 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:02 ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-19 17:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:31 ` Eric Abrahamsen
2023-11-25 4:23 ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 21:15 ` Barry Fishman
2023-11-20 1:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 15:32 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23 2:57 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 17:14 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27 3:09 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 12:21 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-29 3:42 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29 12:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 2:44 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 12:39 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-30 3:37 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01 0:18 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 5:51 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-10 8:34 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10 9:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10 9:53 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-10 10:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-10 11:05 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-12-01 7:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 8:03 ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02 3:21 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 18:14 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-24 18:35 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-27 3:14 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 2:46 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-28 6:35 ` Nikita Domnitskii
2023-11-30 3:37 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 21:37 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 15:14 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-10 16:27 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-10 20:28 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-10 21:13 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-12 3:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12 6:46 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 15:18 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-14 3:24 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-14 16:52 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16 4:24 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16 5:04 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-16 18:30 ` Bob Rogers
2023-12-18 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-12 19:24 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-12-12 21:36 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-12-12 22:25 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-13 1:32 ` Adam Porter
2023-12-14 3:23 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16 4:23 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 4:09 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 10:08 ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21 4:20 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 9:50 ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-21 16:01 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21 16:20 ` João Távora
2023-12-24 3:56 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-24 3:57 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 14:10 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-24 3:57 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:14 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19 3:49 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-19 12:13 ` cond* João Távora
2023-12-22 3:14 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-22 7:27 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-25 3:41 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 12:32 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-27 4:54 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-27 14:34 ` cond* Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-29 3:52 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:49 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03 4:13 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:57 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05 4:23 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 14:33 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 22:25 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2024-01-08 3:45 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:20 ` Drew Adams
2024-01-09 2:53 ` map seq and radix-tree-leaf, in pcase Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 3:47 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-10 13:03 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-13 3:50 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13 6:32 ` cond* Adam Porter
2024-01-16 3:31 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-13 19:47 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-15 3:13 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 3:47 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:13 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27 3:37 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-01 16:26 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-02-03 3:36 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-02-03 16:52 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03 4:13 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:48 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 4:31 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:09 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08 3:47 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:26 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27 3:37 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 4:13 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 15:50 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-06 4:31 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:13 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08 3:47 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:35 ` cond* Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-19 15:53 ` [External] : cond* Drew Adams
2023-12-21 4:22 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-21 4:22 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 4:09 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-18 5:41 ` cond* Adam Porter
2023-12-21 4:20 ` cond* Richard Stallman
2023-12-16 4:23 ` Instead of pcase Richard Stallman
2023-12-16 4:23 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-16 6:57 ` Adam Porter
2023-12-20 3:28 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-20 10:52 ` Adam Porter
2023-12-23 2:53 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-23 2:53 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-25 14:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-27 4:54 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-28 13:05 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-12-30 3:20 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-01 14:33 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-03 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-03 16:08 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-05 4:23 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-06 13:04 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-08 3:47 ` Richard Stallman
2024-01-08 15:42 ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-01-27 3:37 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-13 4:58 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-11 3:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 13:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 2:42 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-21 5:14 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-21 5:34 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-21 11:11 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 15:38 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23 3:00 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 3:34 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 4:30 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-24 7:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-25 3:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-24 17:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24 17:29 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-28 2:44 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 19:14 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-11-30 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-30 20:30 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 6:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 15:47 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 20:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-12-02 13:24 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-02 13:51 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-04 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-03 3:28 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 20:47 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 6:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 7:07 ` Yuri Khan
2023-12-01 8:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 9:04 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-04 3:08 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 11:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 12:35 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 13:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-04 17:46 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-07 2:48 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-07 17:42 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-09 4:02 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 18:17 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 12:37 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-08 3:54 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-01 10:13 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 8:35 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-01 10:02 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 11:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 12:48 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-12-01 14:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:28 ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2023-12-01 18:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-01 18:45 ` João Távora
2024-01-09 5:36 ` Stefan Kangas
2023-12-01 13:28 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:25 ` Andreas Schwab
2024-01-09 5:33 ` Stefan Kangas
2024-01-09 10:43 ` João Távora
2023-12-01 16:04 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-01 16:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-02 3:20 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 8:41 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-12-02 9:02 ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-12-02 10:14 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-02 17:02 ` Barry Fishman
2023-12-02 20:25 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-03 4:30 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-12-05 2:58 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-05 3:36 ` chad
2023-12-08 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 14:33 ` Michael Heerdegen via Emacs development discussions.
2023-12-04 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-02 18:01 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-04 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2023-12-04 12:27 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-12-03 3:27 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25 4:15 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-27 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-30 18:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 18:49 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-16 23:41 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 7:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-26 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:06 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-16 17:31 ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 18:26 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 18:40 ` T.V Raman
2023-11-16 19:13 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-20 3:06 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-20 14:35 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23 2:57 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 15:20 ` Spencer Baugh
2023-11-16 20:16 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-16 21:37 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-11-25 4:34 ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-25 8:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18 3:03 ` combining cond and let, to replace pcase Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 11:20 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 11:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:16 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 13:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:32 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 14:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 15:27 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 15:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 16:03 ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 16:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:29 ` Joost Kremers
2023-11-19 18:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 12:50 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 13:52 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 15:35 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 16:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21 8:33 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-21 8:39 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 13:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:53 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 12:04 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-11-19 18:10 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-25 4:45 ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-28 15:31 ` João Távora
2023-11-28 15:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-19 21:36 ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-11-21 16:14 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 16:08 ` Axel Forsman
2023-11-21 15:53 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-23 2:58 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-23 7:02 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-26 3:14 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 17:07 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-27 17:59 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-28 14:25 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2023-11-23 8:58 ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-26 3:14 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-24 3:08 ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-24 3:26 ` Daniel Semyonov
2023-11-25 2:59 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-25 5:11 ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 18:13 ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-11-27 18:49 ` Yuri Khan
2023-11-27 23:12 ` Stefan Monnier
2023-11-29 3:41 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-29 3:40 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-27 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-16 18:11 ` Instead of pcase Emanuel Berg
2023-11-16 19:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 22:16 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 7:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-17 8:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 12:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-18 6:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-18 7:21 ` Po Lu
2023-11-18 7:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-16 18:22 ` Jim Porter
2023-11-16 22:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-17 5:36 ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 11:48 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 12:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:05 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:41 ` Po Lu
2023-11-19 14:44 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 14:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 14:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 15:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:04 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 18:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-19 18:51 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-19 19:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-21 2:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-19 14:14 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 15:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-11-20 14:52 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-19 14:29 ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 15:20 ` Michael Heerdegen
2023-11-20 15:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-20 23:43 ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 1:09 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 1:49 ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 1:59 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 4:04 ` Po Lu
2023-11-21 11:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-21 11:49 ` Po Lu
2023-11-20 23:45 ` Jose E. Marchesi
2023-11-20 23:54 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-21 2:01 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-22 2:59 ` Richard Stallman
2023-11-22 3:29 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-11-22 11:58 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-11-24 3:38 ` Richard Stallman
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