From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2021 16:51:47 +0000 Message-ID: <22aaf0fadd0870c0e9f8@heytings.org> References: <831ba60af0cbfdd95686@heytings.org> <87mtuxj8ue.fsf@gnus.org> <9088e12cb3de3d30abf1@heytings.org> <8735wnjsum.fsf@gnus.org> <83sg4n9jei.fsf@gnu.org> <271290d7aac58f2f9e96@heytings.org> <83czvr9hvc.fsf@gnu.org> <271290d7aa69bbcaa204@heytings.org> <83lfae8fbg.fsf@gnu.org> <22aaf0fadd0894af49d9@heytings.org> <83v99i6ink.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20137"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 23 18:53:29 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lOlDc-00058u-Tg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 18:53:28 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48536 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOlDb-0000QE-Rn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 13:53:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53900) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOkG2-0004za-4h for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:51:54 -0400 Original-Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:42324) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lOkFy-000269-Ha; Tue, 23 Mar 2021 12:51:53 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1616518307; bh=ZY6EeqxnOqJSfwnarKdqrQgXwAjGfA+/vQrOXUTc1pA=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=iMOgeGg6s+1BWEm2Ty7SsCGXFJX9lkLsOxA1LAFBgxOZ5ltt9TAMD11RLu0XOkzf1 JwcHHEZK/fomktBbsG4LSFPtEdJijAOLjh+L1jaIxvqzusGGYwacbFgXQ4luN52+4L BqSLIpEsq71P07zXCGm+l8AwiWLPgdCXCQbD72gAU/O7yTcoSnMiwD6bFOiahR5AHA CJkigvfkY3cuVi3bSIpTKfL+CiCO0/pFGPMx77G1TBth7m2VhHsTQoCnJF1zE2ckdu 0gySDizM21JsuFzUFMiXWLlNZBx/0k2agxfh+qslfozA06DsyKFyYEDPOKeh4r1oUg UnV678OPgpBZA== In-Reply-To: <83v99i6ink.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.142.160.155; envelope-from=gregory@heytings.org; helo=heytings.org X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:266881 Archived-At: >> I see your points, but all this is rather sad, because it means that >> Emacs is forever locked by what looks very much like a historical >> accident. > > I disagree, on both counts: Emacs isn't locked, and what we have is not > an accident. > I think you understood what I meant: the "C-o" key is locked in the default bindings, and the fact that "C-o" was bound to open-line is a historical accident. > > I disagree that it's a problem. Customizing key bindings is an integral > part of using Emacs wisely and efficiently, and the sooner newcomers > learn that the better. Emacs is unlike many other editors in this > regard. > Let's (again) agree to disagree then. IMO Emacs should aim at being fully usable, including all its extensions, without ever having to edit configuration files manually (and without restarting Emacs). Packages that need to define keys globally should have a way to do that, just like major and minor mode packages. Major and minor mode packages can define keys that work out of the box in buffers in which these modes are enabled. I suppose everyone would agree that asking users who install a foo-mode package to add (define-key foo-mode-map (kbd "") #'foo-mode-do-something) lines in their init configuration file (and to restart Emacs) before being able to use foo-mode would be cumbersome. > > Trying to make everybody happy with the default Emacs key bindings is a > dead end. Trying to solve that unsolvable problem is a waste of energy. > That's not at all what I aim(ed) at. And the problem I want(ed) to solve is not unsolvable, it has a simple solution.