Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]

Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]

[edgar]

On 2018-05-20 01:24, Samuel Wales wrote:
> perhaps we can start thinking about improving registration between 
> formats?

I don't really know what this means.

> if you export org [you posted to org mailng list] to a foreign format,
> you want your collaborator to be able to edit, save, send back without
> raising a sweat.

Not really, although it would be nice--and possibly titanic to do.

> now you have to integrate the changes.  you want to do this without 
> annoyance.
> 
> suppose you export comments in the foreign format that contain the
> equivalent of persistent markers.  you might or might not be willing
> to put org id or custom id on every heading, but there might be
> workarounds that are not so intrusive.  maybe your source can contain
> comments with markers.  dunno.

Every great project had to start somewhere (this sounds like that). 
However, if I am going to devote time to such a gigantic task, I would 
rather spend it trying to convert others to free software rather than 
doing favours to a closed format. I am not saying that it wouldn't be 
nice to have it.

> if your exported document is a subtree within a huge org file that you
> edit all the time, registration allows your software to identify that
> subtree, so you're not trying to change anything outside that subtree.
> that alone is a win.

This sounds like a project for people in LibreOffice or Pandoc. I think 
I will contact them to see if they are interested.

> 
> but maybe we can do more.  the markers can register sections or even
> paragraphs if you're doing intensive collaboration.  the tricky part
> might be getting standard tools to understand that the mapping of
> markers takes precedence over everything else.

Yes, big project.

> 
> details of this handwavey and possibly impossible brainstorm are left
> as an exercise for the reader.

LooooL! you remind me of books with notes such as "after deriving the 
equation one arrives to the following expression" :P !

Thank you.

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Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]

[edgar]

> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 10:08:46 +0200
> From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org
> Message-ID: <20180520080846.GA15239@tuxteam.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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> On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 06:24:49PM -0700, Samuel Wales wrote:
>> perhaps we can start thinking about improving registration between 
>> formats?
> 
> This resonates with some vague ideas that keep haunting some
> dark corners of my mind:
> 
> it isn't generally possible to convert "Word" [1] into Org. But what
> if that "Word" is just a slight modification of something which has
> been transformed from an Org document we know?
> 
> Of course, augmenting that with "pockets" where to stash 
> meta-information
> which might get lost on round-trip would be even more interesting. 
> Perhaps
> those pockets are external, tied to some (possibly change-resistant) 
> hash
> made of enough context.
> 
> Did I say dark corners?
> 
> Cheers

Makes me feel lucky of being able to tie my laces! :D .

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Re: Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]

[tomas]

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On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 07:34:23PM +0000, edgar@openmail.cc wrote:

[...]

> Makes me feel lucky of being able to tie my laces! :D .

:-D

Don't worry. Great humans are, from time to time reported to have
a hard time with that:

  "Though kind hearted, warm, and likeable Erdos was known for his
  lack of social graces [...] It is said Erdos had never tied his
  own shoelaces until age 14 nor buttered his own bread until he
  was 21 years old [...]"
  <https://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Erd%C5%91s/6000000000420793692>

Cheers
- -- t
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Re: General advice beyond Org

[edgar]

> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 05:39:07 +0200
> From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork@mbork.pl>
> To: edgar@openmail.cc
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org
> Message-ID: <87zi0tvfs4.fsf@mbork.pl>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> 
> 
> And very untrue.

THANKS!

> It helps to develop a rational attitude to morality: you do not have
> influence on everything, not even all the results of your actions, and
> hence you do not bear responsibility for what you don't influence.  (Of
> course, that doesn't mean you don't bear any responsibility for what 
> you
> _do_ influence.)

Do you mean pragmatic or short-sighted by rational? I don't think that 
philosophers are necessarily irrational :) (to name a few).

> For instance, you go to the bakery, buy the bread and pay the baker the
> money.  He then takes the money and goes to buy a gun to kill his wife.
> Are you responsible?  I don't think so (at least under normal
> circumstances).

Ah, but you showed a queen of diamonds to the baker, who was conditioned 
to kill as soon as he saw that! :P LoL. Agree.

> (BTW, by "rational attitude to morality" I mean "attitude to morality
> which takes morality seriously, and at the same time takes seriously 
> the
> _reality_, i.e., not some nice-looking theory which does not work in
> practice, nor any way to just say that morality doesn't matter.  IOW,
> "rational attitude to morality" is just "the Catholic attitude to
> morality".)

Yes. I think that this is closer to what I wanted to say earlier.

> Again, too simplistic and not true.

> FWIW, I work in a small software house which mostly uses open-source
> software (which is not the same as free software, but has a big
> intersection with it).  We use Node.js, Vagrant, Ansible, PostgreSQL...
> And our boss encourages us to "give back" to the larger community by 
> bug
> reports, pull requests and open-sourcing small utilities we write.

I think that it's worth a lot! Shut! if half the companies did that...

> *Very true*.  We have one person using MacOS.  Every time there's some
> problem, someone says "It's because it's Apple."  Yes, it's a joke, but
> it's symptomatic.  We also run a small, jocular version of "editor war"
> between Emacs (me) and Sublime Text (most of the other developers).
> 

I like these type of running gags myself :) .

> Just my 2 cents.

Can I pay back? :)

> 
> --
> Marcin Borkowski
> http://mbork.pl

Thanks Marcin!

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Re: Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]

[edgar]

> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 10:07:23 +0200
> From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: Exporting ODT to Org [was Re: General advice beyond Org]
> Message-ID: <20180521080723.GA24055@tuxteam.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; x-action=pgp-signed
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 07:34:23PM +0000, edgar@openmail.cc wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> Makes me feel lucky of being able to tie my laces! :D .
> 
> :-D

:P

> 
> Don't worry. Great humans are, from time to time reported to have
> a hard time with that:
> 
>   "Though kind hearted, warm, and likeable Erdos was known for his
>   lack of social graces [...] It is said Erdos had never tied his
>   own shoelaces until age 14 nor buttered his own bread until he
>   was 21 years old [...]"
>   <https://www.geni.com/people/Paul-Erd%C5%91s/6000000000420793692>
> 

With all due respect to Mr. Paul Erdős, sorry for my ignorance. I did 
not know that this existed. I appreciate the comment, tom.

> Cheers
> - -- t

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Re: General advice beyond Org

[Marcin Borkowski]

On 2018-05-23, at 06:04, edgar@openmail.cc wrote:

>> It helps to develop a rational attitude to morality: you do not have
>> influence on everything, not even all the results of your actions, and
>> hence you do not bear responsibility for what you don't influence.  (Of
>> course, that doesn't mean you don't bear any responsibility for what
>> you
>> _do_ influence.)
>
> Do you mean pragmatic or short-sighted by rational? I don't think that
> philosophers are necessarily irrational :) (to name a few).

I mean neither.  By "rational" I mean "guided by reason".

>> For instance, you go to the bakery, buy the bread and pay the baker the
>> money.  He then takes the money and goes to buy a gun to kill his wife.
>> Are you responsible?  I don't think so (at least under normal
>> circumstances).
>
> Ah, but you showed a queen of diamonds to the baker, who was
> conditioned to kill as soon as he saw that! :P LoL. Agree.

;-)

>> (BTW, by "rational attitude to morality" I mean "attitude to morality
>> which takes morality seriously, and at the same time takes seriously
>> the
>> _reality_, i.e., not some nice-looking theory which does not work in
>> practice, nor any way to just say that morality doesn't matter.  IOW,
>> "rational attitude to morality" is just "the Catholic attitude to
>> morality".)
>
> Yes. I think that this is closer to what I wanted to say earlier.
>
>> Again, too simplistic and not true.
>
>> FWIW, I work in a small software house which mostly uses open-source
>> software (which is not the same as free software, but has a big
>> intersection with it).  We use Node.js, Vagrant, Ansible, PostgreSQL...
>> And our boss encourages us to "give back" to the larger community by
>> bug
>> reports, pull requests and open-sourcing small utilities we write.
>
> I think that it's worth a lot! Shut! if half the companies did that...

Yes.

Maybe we tend to forget what a "commercial company" is.  On the one
hand, it is (by definition) a means to make money.  If it doesn't make
money, it does not fulfil its primary purpose, and this means its
broken, and should be either fixed or abandoned.  On the other hand, it
should not be just the instrument of greediness of the owner(s).  They
in turn are people, and their primary purpose is completely different.

If you identify yourself too much with any kind of commercial endeavor,
it is a sign of very serious problems.

>> *Very true*.  We have one person using MacOS.  Every time there's some
>> problem, someone says "It's because it's Apple."  Yes, it's a joke, but
>> it's symptomatic.  We also run a small, jocular version of "editor war"
>> between Emacs (me) and Sublime Text (most of the other developers).
>
> I like these type of running gags myself :) .

:-)

I taught Emacs to a friend, whom I sometimes show cool tricks.  Once
I showed him multiple cursors, which required some choreography from my
fingers, but I thought it was quite impressive.  Then he nodded and
asked "I'm wondering what were you doing with your feet."

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski
http://mbork.pl

Re: General advice beyond Org

[edgar]

On 2018-05-26 04:01, Marcin Borkowski wrote:
> On 2018-05-23, at 06:04, edgar@openmail.cc wrote:
> 
>>> It helps to develop a rational attitude to morality: you do not have
>>> influence on everything, not even all the results of your actions, 
>>> and
>>> hence you do not bear responsibility for what you don't influence.  
>>> (Of
>>> course, that doesn't mean you don't bear any responsibility for what
>>> you
>>> _do_ influence.)
>> 
>> Do you mean pragmatic or short-sighted by rational? I don't think that
>> philosophers are necessarily irrational :) (to name a few).
> 
> I mean neither.  By "rational" I mean "guided by reason".

I think that we are going to have a conversation on a delightful caffe 
somewhere in the middle of Venice to discuss about this, because it's 
still not clear to me. :)

> Maybe we tend to forget what a "commercial company" is.  On the one
> hand, it is (by definition) a means to make money.  If it doesn't make
> money, it does not fulfil its primary purpose, and this means its
> broken, and should be either fixed or abandoned.  On the other hand, it
> should not be just the instrument of greediness of the owner(s).  They
> in turn are people, and their primary purpose is completely different.

This conversation is going to be an interestingly long one indeed.

> If you identify yourself too much with any kind of commercial endeavor,
> it is a sign of very serious problems.

> I taught Emacs to a friend, whom I sometimes show cool tricks.  Once
> I showed him multiple cursors, which required some choreography from my
> fingers, but I thought it was quite impressive.  Then he nodded and
> asked "I'm wondering what were you doing with your feet."

LOL!

> 
> Best,
> 
> --
> Marcin Borkowski
> http://mbork.pl

I hope to actually meet you one of these days :) .

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