From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Chad Brown Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:42:56 -0700 Message-ID: <22603146-A346-4FC2-8D74-5D6047865C3A@mit.edu> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1269021699 4726 80.91.229.12 (19 Mar 2010 18:01:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:01:39 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 19 19:01:30 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsgVd-0001tj-MG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:01:21 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58303 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsgVd-0003Ab-72 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:01:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NsfHw-0000My-RR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:43:08 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=49220 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsfHu-0000Kr-Rb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:43:08 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsfHt-0000QD-TK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:43:06 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:52535) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsfHs-0000Pn-9v; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:43:04 -0400 Original-Received: by pwi4 with SMTP id 4so3041373pwi.0 for ; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:subject:mime-version :content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:content-transfer-encoding :message-id:references:to:x-mailer; bh=beaxG0XBpRY/KMHjrBdxYnFWzbnKG+OUr5kOqOx/KQ0=; b=Oyo0eXcWj7w43IifAnbw+tCwe8RoK+WB8L6pAPrhfEJ+6bN/onfubFKGjO8Uv3kNVJ O9QVKUBfUZaUsGcFnVkcejU7f4J/e/lUP0wgIjUAmOBI0dCVK7+EFGCRlmMSNJfjFw2T rWgH3f0r/d8XbeC6G5AEtylPoJoOJellnYVOs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to:x-mailer; b=LjDsFbnVO43XYVCNyXgxWIHQerwvZdd3my3Uudn25zLmrz8rj0kj1HYedGaVhIDUHH z992aHlEZG8nyCXz9gDE6XDBXSvsTe93Mt3zTyB8xJZh2kpLhpci1FvOqMD3GUCOORU6 AkfdYFkICQxnAvy9MDHZFOeMmxqLwiivodnsg= Original-Received: by 10.142.75.2 with SMTP id x2mr713172wfa.40.1269016982572; Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [10.0.1.6] (c-98-247-149-76.hsd1.wa.comcast.net [98.247.149.76]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 20sm1045847pzk.3.2010.03.19.09.42.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:43:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:01:15 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122295 Archived-At: On Mar 19, 2010, at 8:56 AM, Richard Stallman wrote: >> It would be useful to see precisely what the beginners said who >> complained about the current defaults. What were their use cases? >=20 > I think they simple want the behaviour that they are used to from > editing taks in other application. >=20 > I am sure that is true, but the question is a specific one. > Precisely which use cases are these people concerned about? Back when I was in a position to notice on a day-to-day basis (helping = newly arrived college students used to `home computers' adapt to MIT's = campus-wide unix workstation infrastructure), the use case seemed to be: * start an editor (emacs was the default editor, so it would be started = in a great number of different contexts) * somehow generate text * sweep out an area with the mouse * type replacement text I saw much confusion when people noticed that the replacement text was = added rather than replacing, and also frequent situations where the user = had clearly simply assumed that the text was being replaced and didn't = notice that it wasn't (fortunately, they'd often catch these cases on a = spell-check step, since the usual selection mechanism resulted in the = added text being glommed directly on to the end of the intended-replaced = text). I'm my observations, users who created/extended the selection using the = keyboard were quite rare, and I would be comfortable saying that they = were all familiar enough with emacs to be aware of the situation (and = either work around or customize around it). This experience is not = particularly recent, but everything I have seen with new users since = then suggests that this sort of interaction is even more strongly = ingrained in users (since so many of them generate their early user = experiences inside web browsers, including text edit boxes). I hope this helps, *Chad=