From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:09 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <2225099d-16e1-645d-0342-a054da53363f@cs.ucla.edu> References: <83tv1finob.fsf@gnu.org> <1E9E4C19-37C2-4E24-91B7-8101F9CFBF35@acm.org> <527dc4b5-3176-38b5-f2c1-1483ffc814a1@cs.ucla.edu> <87k12b6sv2.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="64363"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= , 40671@debbugs.gnu.org, ke.vigouroux@laposte.net To: Michael Heerdegen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 00:42:12 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIdg-000Gee-2w for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:42:12 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48372 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIde-0002OX-Ru for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:42:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40024 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIdW-0002OL-Pi for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:42:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIdU-00025d-UW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:42:01 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:34631) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIdU-00025C-Ds for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:42:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIdV-0002r0-Jh for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:42:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 40671 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 40671-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B40671.158733607710919 (code B ref 40671); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:42:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 40671) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2020 22:41:17 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46177 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIcn-0002q3-2n for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:41:17 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:44302) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIcm-0002pr-7g for 40671@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:41:16 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE3E2160065; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id VLSSB9ph0T34; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF6D16008E; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id sGTW3TdH8mvB; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A6936160065; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:41:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87k12b6sv2.fsf@web.de> Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:178679 Archived-At: On 4/19/20 2:57 PM, Michael Heerdegen wrote: > I had a quick look at your changes. I agree that it would have been > better to discuss before you start to install what you think you like. Yes, in hindsight I suppose you're right. If you like I can revert the changes now. > Before your changes the manual used the > term "literal" objects, now you added a different wording "constant" > vs. "mutable" that describes more or less the same thing. Thanks, I hadn't recalled that use of "literal object" (in the Equality Predicates) section. Although the two notions are related they're not identical. For example, the reason one shouldn't modify byte-code objects is not the sharing issue mentioned in Equality Predicates: it's because doing so can make Emacs crash. That being said, it would be helpful discuss the two notions in a unified way rather than separately, as is the case now. > Then some things you added are just wrong, at least in the generality > you word them. As Drew said, `quote' doesn't always return constant > objects, the special form just returns the OBJECT, whatever it is, when > it is evaluated. It depends on what one means by "constant" objects. If we uniformly changed that word to "literal" would that remove the objection? For example, although byte-code objects aren't normally what one would think of as being "literal", we could simply define them to be "literal". > | Vectors written with square brackets are constants and should not be > | modified via @code{aset} or other destructive operations. > > (let ((l (list 1 2 3))) > (let ((my-vector `[,@l])) > my-vector)) > > What does this sentence tell me about the vector I constructed? Nothing, just as the documentation for splicing also says nothing about that vector. These are both deficiencies in the documentation that should get fixed (and in some form the deficiencies both predate the recent changes).