From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs rewrite in a maintainable language Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:50:53 +0900 Message-ID: <22052.51982.9833.353851@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> References: <561A19AB.5060001@cumego.com> <876126key3.fsf@gnu.org> <83fv1a6bfu.fsf@gnu.org> <87d1weo7u9.fsf@gnu.org> <83zizi3qr0.fsf@gnu.org> <87lhb1n81y.fsf@gnu.org> <83si594wt3.fsf@gnu.org> <87io64iigs.fsf@gnu.org> <87r3kso1gr.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87wpuks5ek.fsf@T420.taylan> <83vba4i1z3.fsf@gnu.org> <87pp0cqgjf.fsf@T420.taylan> <83twpoi0sp.fsf@gnu.org> <878u70qf75.fsf@T420.taylan> <83mvvghydi.fsf@gnu.org> <5623E3B5.8050407@dancol.org> <87y4f0kos9.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <5623EAB2.5000008@dancol.org> <87pp0cotqd.fsf@T420.taylan> <5623F7E2.3010200@dancol.org> <87d1wbp9uv.fsf@T420.taylan> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1445251879 2178 80.91.229.3 (19 Oct 2015 10:51:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:51:19 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Daniel Colascione , David Kastrup , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= /Kammer) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 19 12:51:12 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo823-0008R7-Pg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 12:51:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38195 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo823-0002RS-2E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:11 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34992) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo81y-0002RB-R0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo81x-00016R-Qe for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:06 -0400 Original-Received: from turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp ([130.158.96.25]:59954) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo81t-00015r-SO; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 06:51:02 -0400 Original-Received: from steve by turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp with local (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1Zo81m-00059W-4p; Mon, 19 Oct 2015 19:50:54 +0900 In-Reply-To: <87d1wbp9uv.fsf@T420.taylan> X-Mailer: VM 8.0.12-devo-585 under 21.5 (beta34) "kale" 698a9aa86de4 XEmacs Lucid (x86_64-apple-darwin14.5.0) X-SA-Exim-Connect-IP: X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: steve@turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No (on turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp); SAEximRunCond expanded to false X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 130.158.96.25 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:192066 Archived-At: Taylan Ulrich Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1 =09/Kammer writes: > I've heard bad things about both defstruct and EIEIO for different > reasons. The fact that most Elisp code is shy of using even defstru= ct > should tell us something. It does. It tells us that RMS doesn't like abstract data types. AFAICT there's little inherent problem with defstruct from cl-macs (or cl-lib, I forget which), it's just a matter of style preference (originally rooted in the claim that cl.el was just syntactic sugar so it was a waste of pure space on small machines to require it). > >> an FFI > > > > We're getting modules separately. >=20 > I'm not sure if that's comparable to an FFI. Does Guile's FFI refuse to load code if it doesn't call the I-swear- I'm-GPLed function? That's another requirement for an FFI/module system in Emacs, at least for the present. > I'll now leave this branch of the discussion too because it's > probably not going to head in a good direction. I would much > rather do something constructive than try counter people's panicky > reactions to Guile, whatever reason they have. I'm not panicking. GuileEmacs has zero attraction for me *personally* because on the one hand its advocates admit it still needs work. On the other none of its claimed advantages excite *me* one bit. If we can really rewrite all of Emacs with the exception of device drivers in Guile, then I'd definitely be excited (I think that's what Tom Tromey is talking about). But I don't think that effort is likely to succeed in providing an efficient Emacs at all soon, although it might provide an efficient Emacs Lisp. So we would end up with three implementation languages required to understand important (generic) components of Emacs. Specifically I suppose that redisplay is likely to remain in C for a long time. I don't think that's a win, especially with the e^i mental twist required when moving between Scheme code and Lisp code. It doesn't bother me if somebody else wants to do the work, though.