From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#22564: Fundamental mode isn't fundamental enough. Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:57:02 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <21ab8829-7de9-4344-8882-ad77eb57593f@default> References: <> <<20160206110601.6095.qmail@mail.muc.de>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1454774308 16358 80.91.229.3 (6 Feb 2016 15:58:28 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:58:28 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 22564@debbugs.gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie , Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 06 16:58:14 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FW-0006iQ-1H for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 16:58:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54708 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FS-0006Zg-0F for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:58:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35080) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FO-0006Yz-7M for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:58:07 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FK-0002sJ-Tf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:58:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:55667) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FK-0002s6-QX for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:58:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5FK-0004r2-Gc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:58:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:58:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 22564 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 22564-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B22564.145477423518606 (code B ref 22564); Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:58:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 22564) by debbugs.gnu.org; 6 Feb 2016 15:57:15 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36023 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5EZ-0004q2-Au for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:57:15 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp1040.oracle.com ([141.146.126.69]:29559) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aS5EX-0004po-RX for 22564@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:57:14 -0500 Original-Received: from aserv0022.oracle.com (aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by aserp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u16Fv77X010623 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:57:07 GMT Original-Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserv0022.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u16Fv6QG019790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:57:06 GMT Original-Received: from ubhmp0001.oracle.com (ubhmp0001.oracle.com [156.151.24.54]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u16Fv3qC019930; Sat, 6 Feb 2016 15:57:04 GMT In-Reply-To: <<20160206110601.6095.qmail@mail.muc.de>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: aserv0022.oracle.com [141.146.126.234] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:112566 Archived-At: > >> +1. Fundamental mode should be Notepad-like as much as possible IMHO. > >> (Incidentally, I almost never use Fundamental mode, exactly because of > >> that.) >=20 > > Fundamental mode is not really supposed to be used by users > > interactively, AFAIK. It should not even have the functionality > > of Notepad. It is used as an empty inheritance point for other > > modes. It is the "bottom" of modes. ;-) >=20 > I think fundamental mode existed long before derived modes did. To say > it shouldn't be used directly by users is a bit strange, IMAO. I use it > fairly often, e.g. when I'm testing, and I want to clear out buffer local > variables from some buffer, or to re-initialise font locking, or > something like that. In that case, I'd still suggest that Fundamental mode should be truly trivial, with no particular expectation that it be used interactively, and with it not chosen as the default mode for any buffers in `emacs -Q'. But I'd also suggest that we create an intermediate mode that is _almost_ trivial, that inherits from Fundamental mode, and that provides whatever is considered a bare minimum for interactive use. If that bare minimimum includes electric indentation, so be it. But I do think we should not be adding to Fundamental mode. (Just one opinion.)