bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Van L]

 > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
 > external stuff

A data point. 

Ditaa requires a JRE as mentioned at

  http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-ditaa.html

The litigious terms are

  ditaa version 0.9, Copyright (C) 2004--2009  Efstathios (Stathis) Sideris

I didn’t find ditaa.jar in org-mode’s contrib/scripts as claimed.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Jonathan Leech-Pepin]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 727 bytes --]

Hello,

On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 5:28 AM Van L <van@scratch.space> wrote:

>  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
>  > external stuff
>
> A data point.
>
> Ditaa requires a JRE as mentioned at
>
>   http://orgmode.org/worg/org-contrib/babel/languages/ob-doc-ditaa.html
>
> The litigious terms are
>
>   ditaa version 0.9, Copyright (C) 2004--2009  Efstathios (Stathis) Sideris
>
> I didn’t find ditaa.jar in org-mode’s contrib/scripts as claimed.
>

I can't speak for why it is/isn't in the contrib/scripts directory, but if
you go to Github
for the most up to date version it is GPLv3
https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa/blob/master/LICENSE

Regards,
Jon

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1292 bytes --]

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Van L]

> go to Github
> for the most up to date version it is GPLv3
> https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa/blob/master/LICENSE

The official-looking site sends you to SourceForge. Git and Svn repo functions are available there.

At the time, the git part of it was empty. Building the 131K jar required the JDK on top the JRE, and, an IDE on top of that to press the Play button to build.

Perhaps, org-mode can lean in toward extensions that are Free/Open/C/ELisp where possible. In this case, for a little bit of the GIMP to convert ASCII art to SVG or GIF image. The GIMP’s Script-Fu is a kind of Lisp.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > you go to Github
  > for the most up to date version it is GPLv3
  > https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa/blob/master/LICENSE

This is an illustration of the confused and harmful license practices
that Github has encouraged.  That file does not tell us how the code
is licensed.  It could be under GPL version 3 only, or GPL version
3-or-later.  This is a crucial question.

MAYBE something else in the package will say.  Or maybe not.

The proper way to use the GPL is to put a license notice in each
source file, which would give the answer to this question.  However,
Github has taught people not to bother with this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Van L]

>> you go to Github
>> for the most up to date version it is GPLv3
>> https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa/blob/master/LICENSE
> 
> That file does not tell us how the code is licensed.  

> It could be under GPL version 3 only, or GPL version
> 3-or-later.

> The proper way to use the GPL is to put a license notice in each
> source file, which would give the answer to this question.

CC has a mechanism to help choose, 
apply the license aligned to intent.

https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1295 bytes --]

Hello.

I don't understand why Emacs quote Github, a non-free platform, when I
want to publish my org-blog :

M-x org-publish-all
[…]
Publishing file home/nico/Documents/Travaux/.nico/www/Tutoriels/Emacs/org-mode-listes-de-taches.org using ‘org-html-publish-to-html’
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 2237...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 2786...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 3397...
org-babel-exp process emacs-lisp at position 3846...
org-babel-exp process org at position 4931...
org-html-fontify-code: Please install htmlize from https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize

Surely, I think I should editing my former publications to pass Emacs
25.1 to Emacs 26.1. But I also think that Emacs must not quote GitHub.


Thank you for everything done.
Et vive le Logiciel Libre ! ^^

-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 850 bytes --]

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
> Is there some obstacle to that?

Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

Re: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 11:28 AM Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2.
> Is there some obstacle to Org using that? (bug#7506)

This has been discussed before on the Org mailing list.

From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
instead of htmlize.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
  > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
  > instead of htmlize.

To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 22:55:15 -0400
> Cc: n@flqt.fr, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr
> 
>   > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's
>   > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify
>   > instead of htmlize.
> 
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?

This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
before I make up my mind.

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> This is an Org issue, so I would like to hear from Org developers
> before I make up my mind.

I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand exactly
the issue risen.

From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's the
real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library from
the error message and be done with it. Note that the Org manual still
talks about iOS and Android, which are not free either.

From Richard Stallman: "Emacs should not advise people to load anything
from outside Emacs". Org Export already advises people to load LaTeX
libraries, MathJax, optionally minted, etc. Org Babel requires external
libraries like "asy-mode.el" (ob-asymptote.el), "simple-httpd"
(ob-js.el)... This is a non-issue for us, because it is inherent to Org
and thus cannot be solved by Org.

From Glenn Morris: "Emacs already includes htmlfontify, since 23.2. Is
there some obstacle to Org using that?" This is begging for a specific
solution to a not-so-well defined problem. In any case, Kaushal Modi
answered this one. It is nice if this happens, but could we first define
correctly the problem so we can tell if this is the only possible
solution for it?

From Richard Stallman: "To motivate people to do this, I say we should
not ship another release with that reference to GitHub." The issue
pointed out here seems to be that Org developers or enthusiasts are not
motivated enough to make Org use htmlfontify instead of htmlize. Note
this is very different from the initial report. Richard Stallman then
suggests a possible fix for that issue. It may or may not work; after
all these years spent in education, "motivating people" is a topic that
mostly eludes me. Anyway, since this point contains both the question
and the answer, I don't know what Org could do about it.

This is a genuine question: what /exactly/ do you want Org developers to
solve, assuming they can? Also, if they cannot, who is willing to give
them a hand?

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Floquet]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1073 bytes --]

Le mardi 18 septembre 2018 à 11:37 +0200, Nicolas Goaziou a écrit :
> I read the thread multiple times already but I do not understand
> exactly the issue risen.

Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
technical solutions, I guess…

> From the OP: "Emacs quotes Github, a non-free platform." If that's
> the real problem, we can remove the location of the "htmlize" library
> from the error message and be done with it.

Indeed.

> Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
> not free either.

It's true. I don't know what to think about this.


-- 
| Numérion                  |              Nicolas Floquet |
+----------------------------------------------------------+
| Services informatiques en logiciels libres               |
| XMPP : nflqt@jabber.fr | Tél : 06.32.93.03.51            |
| Ğ1 : BjZFP7UpKjJ9hbavhT2Ep2hP58noXp6xdPY4awsX17yD        |
| PGP : 94C7 641B 719E B06A F406  7AB3 3709 C700 E548 F996 | 
+----------------------------------------------------------+

[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Horn]

Nicolas Floquet writes:

> Actually, it's an ethical issue. That are not always easily solved with
> technical solutions, I guess…
>

Perhaps you could clarify the ethical issues.  The initial RMS comment
on this issue in this thread is:

/* from RMS email

Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs
(counting ELPA).  So this needs to be deleted.

If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs.
Is there some obstacle to that?

*/

I can hypothesize various ethical, marketing, operational, and user
experience reasons for not advising people to load ...

Could you explain the ethical issue(s) that are of specific concern.

Further from RMS was the suggested technical fix

/* from RMS email later in thread
To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
*/

This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  I
could accept a change such as replacing that reference with text saying
"use ???? to find html..."  I'm not sure what to suggest since Google,
duck-duck-go, and other search engines are all commercial non-free
operations.

Rehosting onto a free platform, perhaps gnu.org, might be an option.  A
simple mirror onto a free platform might suffice.  Linux, python, and
other major open source efforts deal with platform issues by providing
their own primary distribution platform.

I can seem some ethical concerns with using a proprietary platform.  Git
was created due to problems with a dependency on a proprietary platform,
although in that case it was more related to a divergence in business
strategic directions than ethical issues.

--
Robert Horn
rjhorniii@gmail.com

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, rms@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> 
> /* from RMS email later in thread
> To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> */
> 
> This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.

We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:53:14 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii
> > <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> > rms@gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> > 
> > /* from RMS email later in thread
> > To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> > release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> > */
> > 
> > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  
> 
> We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.
> 
> 
> 

That's, what the original message on the bug list refers to, however.

I think the original bug report is bogus.  Especially in view of your
statement above.

As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
external stuff (just as htmlfontify does, see my mail and its manual:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/htmlfontify.html#Requirements).

The reason, e.g. LaTeX isn't mentioned explicitly in the manual or in
org is that it is a well-known software.  The link is only given as a
friendly hint.  


Also, in regards to the original bug report, while htmlize is _hosted_
on github, which indeed is not free, htmlize itself _is_ free.  Right
at the beginning of htmlize.el it says:

;; This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
;; the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
;; any later version.

When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
switch, but I'm not sure).


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 19:53:14 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Robert Horn <rjhorn@panix.com>
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Eli Zaretskii
> > <eliz@gnu.org>, kaushal.modi@gmail.com, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org,
> > rms@gnu.org Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 12:37:45 -0400
> > 
> > /* from RMS email later in thread
> > To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another
> > release with that reference to GitHub.  Eli, do you agree?
> > */
> > 
> > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern.  
> 
> We have quite a few references to GitHub in Emacs, just grep for it.
> 
> 
> 

That's, what the original message on the bug list refers to, however.

I think the original bug report is bogus.  Especially in view of your
statement above.

As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
external stuff (just as htmlfontify does, see my mail and its manual:
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_mono/htmlfontify.html#Requirements).

The reason, e.g. LaTeX isn't mentioned explicitly in the manual or in
org is that it is a well-known software.  The link is only given as a
friendly hint.  


Also, in regards to the original bug report, while htmlize is _hosted_
on github, which indeed is not free, htmlize itself _is_ free.  Right
at the beginning of htmlize.el it says:

;; This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
;; the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
;; any later version.

When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
switch, but I'm not sure).


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:53 PM Robert Klein <roklein@roklein.de> wrote:

> When the original poster doesn't want to use htmlize, he probably
> should try to export without fontifying source code (I think there's a
> switch, but I'm not sure).

Setting org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil will not prompt the user
to install htmlize. With that setting, code blocks will not be
htmlized, and instead just exported as plain text.

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

Hello all,

I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

So here's the summary:

- Hrvoje Nikšić does not want to assign the copyright of htmlize to
FSF. So it cannot be part of Emacs, Org mode or even GNU Elpa.
- The package will keep living in its GitHub repo.

1. If user has issues with GitHub's non-free JS:

- Download htmlize directly from
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/master/htmlize.el.

2. If user does not want to use htmlize, or want Org mode to suggest
installing it from GitHub, set org-html-htmlize-output-type to nil.

Note that the htmlize.el package by itself is GPLv2, so it is free.

Does this settle the issue?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0].

Thanks for asking him.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[I sent this message a week ago but did not get a response.
Could we get the discussion moving again?]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other
  > external stuff

Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation.

The ability to work with some other free software package (for
instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all.

Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship
with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some
separate job and that's what the user wants to do.

However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package
installation system by telling users to install things directly.

Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests
loading something else?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Glenn Morris]

I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> I think (or rather assume) that the issue is that GitHub receives
> a grade F ("unacceptable") evaluation acccording to the GNU Ethical Repository
> Criteria; https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html.
> So does SourceForge, by the way. While there are numerous references
> to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally
> live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for
> running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install
> something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you
> wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing.

I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
not fontified.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Amin Bandali]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter
> to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are
> not fontified.

I was going to suggest a less harsher and potentially more
helpful approach: in the short term, mirror the htmlize repo on
code.orgmode.org, the official Gogs instance where Org mode is
hosted and developed.  In the long term, work on replacing
htmlize with htmlfontify.

I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize

Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
every 8 hours or so.

This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  -amin

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Kaushal Modi]

On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:24 PM Amin Bandali <amin@gnu.org> wrote:
>
> I set up a mirror: https://code.orgmode.org/aminb/emacs-htmlize
>
> Assuming code.orgmode.org uses Gogs' default mirror settings, the
> repo should be automatically synchronized with upstream roughly
> every 8 hours or so.
>
> This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
> address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
> proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
> maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
> freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

[0]: https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize/issues/23#issuecomment-422946622

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete
  > > address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a
  > > proprietary platform.  Further, we're not claiminig copyright or
  > > maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a
  > > freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself.

  > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].

  > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

No, it is not ok.
We still need to replace htmlize.

The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:57 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
> blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
> and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
> We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
be discouraged?  If not, htmlize is on MELPA and could be referenced
there.

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:57 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it
> blurs the distinction between Emacs itself
> and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs.
> We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it.

There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
be discouraged?  If not, htmlize is on MELPA and could be referenced
there.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
  > be discouraged?

The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
references -- and on circumstances.

Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

The first question is, does the references tend to encourage,
recommend, or lead users to install and use some outside software?  If
it doesn't, there isn't an issue.  In that case, it would normally be a
comment in the code, not a message shown to the Emacs user.

If it does tend to lead users to install some program, the next
question is, is that program free?  If not, it may be a moral problem,
but that depends.  If the code encourages uses of Emacs by users of
widely used nonfree program Foo, that's ok.  If the code encourages
use of nonfree program Foo by users of Emacs, that's bad, so we should
remove the message _and_ the code immediately.

If the other program is free, the next question is, should this job be
done by part of Emacs, or should it be separate?

If logically it should be a separate program, such as find, GCC or
LaTeX, then it is fine to encourage Emacs users to install it and for
Emacs to invoke it.

If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
job with code that IS part of Emacs.  We could do that by merging the
program into Emacs, or packaging it with Emacs, if those are possible.
Or we could do it by writing new code.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Fri, Sep 21 2018, Richard Stallman wrote:

>   > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
>   > be discouraged?
>
> The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
> a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
> semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
> references -- and on circumstances.
>
> Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

Thank you for the thorough answer.

I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

> If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
> job with code that IS part of Emacs.

At the moment the only *possible* example for this category that I found
among the references to code on MELPA is BBDB -- but I assume that
there's a longstanding decision that BBDB is best kept separate.

(And back to the main theme it seems clear that what htmlize does should
logically be part of Emacs.)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Joe Corneli]

On Fri, Sep 21 2018, Richard Stallman wrote:

>   > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs.  Are these to
>   > be discouraged?
>
> The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends".  Whether
> a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its
> semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it
> references -- and on circumstances.
>
> Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances.

Thank you for the thorough answer.

I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

> If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the
> job with code that IS part of Emacs.

At the moment the only *possible* example for this category that I found
among the references to code on MELPA is BBDB -- but I assume that
there's a longstanding decision that BBDB is best kept separate.

(And back to the main theme it seems clear that what htmlize does should
logically be part of Emacs.)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to
  > encourage interested users to install outside, free, software.

Could you tell me about these, one by one, off the list?
(First, roughly how many are there?)

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, 
> 	Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, 
> 	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0].
> 
> So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html?

I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
questions about that in this discussion, see

  https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95

Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
it's a better solution.

TIA

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Robert Klein]

Hi,
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018 08:43:19 +0300
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 17:16:28 -0400
> > Cc: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>, Glenn Morris
> > <rgm@gnu.org>, n@flqt.fr, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
> > 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, Robert Horn <rjhorniii@gmail.com>, Eli
> > Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> > 
> > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your
> > mirror[0].
> > 
> > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in
> > ox-html?  
> 
> I think we could do better by using htmlfontify.el.  I asked a few
> questions about that in this discussion, see
> 
>   https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=32722#95
> 
> Would the Org developers please reply to those questions?  If indeed
> it is not hard to adapt htmlfontify to be used by Org, then I think
> it's a better solution.

Not an “Org developer” -- I guess mostly Nicolas Goaziou can claim that
title at the moment with two thirds of all commits last year..

As to your questions:

> This should be very easy to fix, by using temporary buffers with a
> copy of the region to produce HTML for.  Right?

plus removing HTML document headers and footers, remove css stuff,
rework this, so we have css to include in the final document...


> > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools
> > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all
> > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on:
> > 
> > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate
> > - a copy of “sed”
> > - a copy of the “file” command
> 
> These are only needed if one invokes htmlfontify-copy-and-link-dir to
> produce HTML for files in a directory.  Is that an important use case
> for the issue at hand?  E.g., if you need to produce HTML for a region
> of a buffer, these facilities seem to not be relevant, AFAIU.  Did I
> miss something?

No. At that moment in the discussion it wasn't clear the issue with htmlize (and github) has been seen fundamentally different by non-org people as opposed to people developing and using org-mode.

> > A switch to htmlfontify might end up in rewriting a good part of
> > htmlfontify or some very ugly hacks.
> 
> I wonder whether we could begin by just supporting the immediate use
> case(s) in point, maybe that is possible without too much rewriting.

See above.

> > If Hrvoje Niksic has or is willing to sign the copyright assignment
> > documents it will be easier to put htmlize.el into Emacs.
> 
> We've been through this several times in the past: it isn't going to
> happen.  I think htmlfontify was added to Emacs for that rteason,
> among others.

Sorry, didn't know there's a history.


Best regards
Robert

bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are
  > > not free either.

That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says.  Can you
> show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems?

All references are related to the appendix about MobileOrg, an
application for viewing and capturing entries from a mobile device.
Relevant parts include references to Apple and Google products in
addition to Dropbox:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg is a companion mobile app that runs on iOS and Android
devices.  MobileOrg enables offline-views and capture support for an
Org mode system that is rooted on a "real" computer.  MobileOrg can
record changes to existing entries.

The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of
devices, was started by Richard Moreland and is now in the hands of
Sean Escriva.  Android users should check out [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg Android]] by
Matt Jones.  Though the two implementations are not identical, they
offer similar features.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
MobileOrg needs access to a file directory on a server to interact
with Emacs.  With a public server, consider encrypting the files.
MobileOrg version 1.5 supports encryption for the iPhone.  Org also
requires =openssl= installed on the local computer.  To turn on
encryption, set the same password in MobileOrg and in Emacs.  Set the
password in the variable ~org-mobile-use-encryption~[fn:145].  Note
that even after MobileOrg encrypts the file contents, the file name
remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the server,
and the mobile device.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
For a server to host files, consider options like [[http://dropbox.com][Dropbox.com]]
account[fn:146].  On first connection, MobileOrg creates a directory
=MobileOrg= on Dropbox.  Pass its location to Emacs through an
initialisation file variable as follows:

#+begin_src emacs-lisp
(setq org-mobile-directory "~/Dropbox/MobileOrg")
#+end_src
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Here is the footnote from the last excerpt:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
[fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I think that is about it.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The crucial question here is whether Mobile.org is free software.  If
it is not, then GNU packages including their documentation should not
mention it at all.  See the chapter References in the GNU Coding
Standards.

What is the source license of Mobile.org?

Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries,
such as Google Play Library?  Is it listed in f-droid.org?

I don't think it is possible to have free apps for the iMonsters.
This is because iOS does not allow users to install modified versions
of apps, even if the app's source is released under a free license.


Another issue is the suggestion to use DropBox.
Normal use of Dropbox involves running nonfree JS software
(see https://gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html),
so we cannot recommend using Dropbox in the normal way.

If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are
necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client
software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_.
(The operations necessary in this context must include creating an
account.)

However, the text you showed me does not include such a specific
recommendation, so we have to eliminate it.  We could reinsert the
discussion of Dropbox if and when someone writes text to recommend a
suitable specific way to use it.

  > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
  > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.  Additional
  > help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]].

Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?

Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
server without any nonfree client software?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Bingo UV]

Hi RMS, Nicolas
   The concrete software MobileOrg on Android is somewhat of an orphan.
   It may not revive as itself. But there is also a protocol mobileorg,
   which the manual alludes to, though does not document directly. That
   protocol is very much an enabler of software freedom, and it is
   important for the next MobileOrg to be written. I hope it survives
   these questions.

The protocol can be used to sync 2 sets of org-mode files between 2
emacs instances - without needing the iOS or Android versions of
MobileOrg. When fancypants sync systems like dropbox, git, syncthing,
rsync etc. are not available, the mobileorg protocol can be used to
transfer changes from one place to another.

As for the questions :

On Wed, 19 Sep 2018 21:50:26 -0400
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> What is the source license of Mobile.org?

GPLv3
(https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/blob/master/LICENSE.txt)

> 
Is it listed in f-droid.org?

It used to be, it has been kicked out of f-droid due to violating
policies : including dubious jars. Dropbox API that it was using was
surely non-free.


>   > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server.  MobileOrg
>   > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration.
>   > Additional help is at this
>   > [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ
>   > entry]].  
> 
> Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox?
> 
> Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
> server without any nonfree client software?

There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
worg page:
1. SSH
2. Local filesystem


Also, since one can write one's own WebDAV server using specs, it
doesn't matter if some particular WebDAV servers are free or not.

thanks

Re: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I asked 

  > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
  > > server without any nonfree client software?

Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
shows that using WebDAV is no problem.

  > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
  > worg page:
  > 1. SSH
  > 2. Local filesystem

It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
and publish it under a different name.

Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.

Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
version when that new version is available.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Leslie Watter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2276 bytes --]

Hello all,

Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
will have
to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
development of MobileOrg
in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

Updating the software could help more than just forking it and publishing
it with another name.  There's
some options (Orgzly, Syncthing) that can be used but none of them are as
usefull as MobileOrg.

So, if anyone could contact Matthew Jones (https://github.com/matburt) and
offer some help
I think that could be a better approach than just forking it. Unfortunately
I cannot help at this point.

Cheers,

LEslie

[0] - https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/issues/501

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:17 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I asked
>
>   > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
>   > > server without any nonfree client software?
>
> Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
> shows that using WebDAV is no problem.
>
>   > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
>   > worg page:
>   > 1. SSH
>   > 2. Local filesystem
>
> It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
> methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
> that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
> and publish it under a different name.
>
> Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
> use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.
>
> Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
> that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
> We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
> version when that new version is available.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Leslie H. Watter

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3497 bytes --]

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
  > MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
  > will have
  > to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
  > development of MobileOrg
  > in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
  > MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
  > will have
  > to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
  > development of MobileOrg
  > in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> updated.

For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox". Here it is in
its full glory (please ignore the broken links, which refer to other
parts in the Org manual):

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
                               ORG MOBILE
                              Release 9.2

                        The Org Mode Developers
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━


Table of Contents
─────────────────

1. Setting up the staging area
2. Pushing to the mobile application
3. Pulling from the mobile application


Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
other applications, e.g., on mobile devices. It enables offline-views
and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a “real”
computer. The external application can also record changes to existing
entries.

This appendix describes Org’s support for agenda view formats compatible
with Org Mobile. It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to
notes, between the mobile application and the computer.

To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
customize the variables `org-todo-keywords' and `org-tag-alist'. These
should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files
use only some of them. Though the mobile application is expected to
support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand TODO states
/sets/ (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting up keywords for individual files])
and /mutually exclusive/ tags (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting Tags]) only
for those set in these variables.


1 Setting up the staging area
═════════════════════════════

  The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
  to interact with Emacs. Pass its location through the
  `org-mobile-directory' variable. If you can mount that directory
  locally just set the variable to point to that directory:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
  └────

  Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
  `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
  through, for example, SSH and SCP:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
  └────

  With a public server, consider encrypting the files. Org also requires
  OpenSSL installed on the local computer. To turn on encryption, set
  the same password in the mobile application and in Emacs. Set the
  password in the variable `org-mobile-use-encryption'[2]. Note that
  even after the mobile application encrypts the file contents, the file
  name remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
  server, and the mobile device.


[TRAMP User Manual] <info:tramp>


2 Pushing to the mobile application
═══════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-push' copies files listed in
  `org-mobile-files' into the staging area. Files include agenda files
  (as listed in `org-agenda-files'). Customize `org-mobile-files' to add
  other files. File names are staged with paths relative to
  `org-directory', so all files should be inside this directory[3].

  Push creates a special Org file `agendas.org' with custom agenda views
  defined by the user[4].

  Finally, Org writes the file `index.org', containing links to other
  files. The mobile application reads this file first from the server to
  determine what other files to download for agendas. For faster
  downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums[5] have
  changed.


3 Pulling from the mobile application
═════════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-pull' synchronizes changes with the server.
  More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing. It then
  appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
  the file `mobileorg.org' on the server. Org ultimately integrates its
  data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:

  1. Org moves all entries found in `mobileorg.org'[6] and appends them
     to the file pointed to by the variable `org-mobile-inbox-for-pull'.
     It should reside neither in the staging area nor on the server. Each
     captured entry and each editing event is a top-level entry in the
     inbox file.

  2. After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared files.
     Some of them are applied directly and without user interaction.
     Examples include changes to tags, TODO state, headline and body
     text. Entries requiring further action are tagged as `FLAGGED'. Org
     marks entries with problems with an error message in the inbox. They
     have to be resolved manually.

  3. Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
     intervention to clean up. For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
     displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
     agenda item.

     ?
           Pressing ? displays the entire flagged note in another
           window. Org also pushes it to the kill ring. To store flagged
           note as a normal note, use ? z C-y C-c C-c. Pressing ? twice
           does these things: first it removes the `FLAGGED' tag;
           second, it removes the flagged note from the property drawer;
           third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged entry is
           now finished.

  From the agenda dispatcher, ? returns to the view to finish processing
  flagged entries. Note that these entries may not be the most recent
  since the mobile application searches files that were last pulled. To
  get an updated agenda view with changes since the last pull, pull
  again.



Footnotes
─────────

[1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>). Additional help is at this
[FAQ entry]
(<https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav>).

[2] If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
configure the variable `org-mobile-encryption-password'; please read
the docstring of that variable.

[3] Symbolic links in `org-directory' need to have the same name as
their targets.

[4] While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on all
referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely identified
if Org Mobile flags them for further action. To avoid setting
properties configure the variable
`org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items' to `nil'. Org mode then relies
on outline paths, assuming they are unique.

[5] Checksums are stored automatically in the file `checksums.dat'.

[6] The file will be empty after this operation.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I also used CTAN URL for the minted LaTeX package.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 16:53:04 +0200
> Cc: 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, leslie@watter.net, right.ho@gmail.com,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> 
> > This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> > If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> > go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> > updated.
> 
> For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
> This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox".

Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
please?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 16:53:04 +0200
> Cc: 32722@debbugs.gnu.org, n@flqt.fr, leslie@watter.net, right.ho@gmail.com,
> 	kaushal.modi@gmail.com
> 
> > This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> > If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> > go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> > updated.
> 
> For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
> This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox".

Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
please?

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> please?

I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 

You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
@node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> 
> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> > please?
> 
> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> 
> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
appropriate branch.

Thanks.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org,  32722@debbugs.gnu.org,  n@flqt.fr,  leslie@watter.net,  right.ho@gmail.com,  kaushal.modi@gmail.com, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>
> Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2018 20:33:35 +0200
> 
> > Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> > please?
> 
> I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 
> 
> You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
> @node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
> Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

I could install a patch that you produced from the Org repository's
appropriate branch.

Thanks.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Thank you.  Can we have this change on the ermacs-26 branch of Emacs,
> please?

I don't have access to the Emacs repository. 

You can either give me write access there, or I can send you the Texinfo
@node contents, or someone with write access could do it for us. I'm
Cc'ing Rasmus for the last option.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou                                                0x80A93738

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

> 1 Setting up the staging area
> ═════════════════════════════
>
>   The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
>
>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>
>   ┌────
>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>   └────
>
> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).

Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
"nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention this.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:
>>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>>
>>   ┌────
>>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>>   └────
>>
>> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
>> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).
>
> Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
> systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
> "nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention
> this.

Sure. How about this?

    Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
    `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
    through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:

      (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:
>>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>>
>>   ┌────
>>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>>   └────
>>
>> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
>> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).
>
> Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
> systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
> "nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention
> this.

Sure. How about this?

    Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
    `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
    through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:

      (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")


Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

>     Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>     `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>     through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:
>
>       (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")

Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
Otherwise, LGTM.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
> Otherwise, LGTM.

Done. Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
> Otherwise, LGTM.

Done. Thank you.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

>     Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>     `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>     through, for example, SSH, SCP, or DAVS:
>
>       (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:/user@remote.host:org/webdav/")

Pls use (setq org-mobile-directory "/davs:user@remote.host.org:/webdav/")
Otherwise, LGTM.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Michael Albinus]

Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:

> Hello,

Hi Nicolas,

> 1 Setting up the staging area
> ═════════════════════════════
>
>   The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
>
>   Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
>   `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
>   through, for example, SSH and SCP:
>
>   ┌────
>   │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
>   └────
>
> [1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
> as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>).

Not every WebDAV server will support an ssh connection. On GNU/Linux
systems, Tramp supports also the connection methods "dav", "davs", and
"nextcloud" (this one since Emacs 27). Maybe it is worth to mention this.

> Regards,

Best regards, Michael.

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Nicolas Goaziou]

Hello,

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> This is actually good news.  It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok.
> If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could
> go into f-droid, we could recommend its use.  But the doc should be
> updated.

For the record, I rewrote the section about Org Mobile in the manual.
This removed all instances of "MobileOrg" and "Dropbox". Here it is in
its full glory (please ignore the broken links, which refer to other
parts in the Org manual):

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
                               ORG MOBILE
                              Release 9.2

                        The Org Mode Developers
                       ━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━


Table of Contents
─────────────────

1. Setting up the staging area
2. Pushing to the mobile application
3. Pulling from the mobile application


Org Mobile is a protocol for synchronizing Org files between Emacs and
other applications, e.g., on mobile devices. It enables offline-views
and capture support for an Org mode system that is rooted on a “real”
computer. The external application can also record changes to existing
entries.

This appendix describes Org’s support for agenda view formats compatible
with Org Mobile. It also describes synchronizing changes, such as to
notes, between the mobile application and the computer.

To change tags and TODO states in the mobile application, first
customize the variables `org-todo-keywords' and `org-tag-alist'. These
should cover all the important tags and TODO keywords, even if Org files
use only some of them. Though the mobile application is expected to
support in-buffer settings, it is required to understand TODO states
/sets/ (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting up keywords for individual files])
and /mutually exclusive/ tags (see [BROKEN LINK: *Setting Tags]) only
for those set in these variables.


1 Setting up the staging area
═════════════════════════════

  The mobile application needs access to a file directory on a server[1]
  to interact with Emacs. Pass its location through the
  `org-mobile-directory' variable. If you can mount that directory
  locally just set the variable to point to that directory:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "~/orgmobile/")
  └────

  Alternatively, by using TRAMP (see [TRAMP User Manual]),
  `org-mobile-directory' may point to a remote directory accessible
  through, for example, SSH and SCP:

  ┌────
  │ (setq org-mobile-directory "/scpc:user@remote.host:org/webdav/")
  └────

  With a public server, consider encrypting the files. Org also requires
  OpenSSL installed on the local computer. To turn on encryption, set
  the same password in the mobile application and in Emacs. Set the
  password in the variable `org-mobile-use-encryption'[2]. Note that
  even after the mobile application encrypts the file contents, the file
  name remains visible on the file systems of the local computer, the
  server, and the mobile device.


[TRAMP User Manual] <info:tramp>


2 Pushing to the mobile application
═══════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-push' copies files listed in
  `org-mobile-files' into the staging area. Files include agenda files
  (as listed in `org-agenda-files'). Customize `org-mobile-files' to add
  other files. File names are staged with paths relative to
  `org-directory', so all files should be inside this directory[3].

  Push creates a special Org file `agendas.org' with custom agenda views
  defined by the user[4].

  Finally, Org writes the file `index.org', containing links to other
  files. The mobile application reads this file first from the server to
  determine what other files to download for agendas. For faster
  downloads, it is expected to only read files whose checksums[5] have
  changed.


3 Pulling from the mobile application
═════════════════════════════════════

  The command `org-mobile-pull' synchronizes changes with the server.
  More specifically, it first pulls the Org files for viewing. It then
  appends captured entries and pointers to flagged or changed entries to
  the file `mobileorg.org' on the server. Org ultimately integrates its
  data in an inbox file format, through the following steps:

  1. Org moves all entries found in `mobileorg.org'[6] and appends them
     to the file pointed to by the variable `org-mobile-inbox-for-pull'.
     It should reside neither in the staging area nor on the server. Each
     captured entry and each editing event is a top-level entry in the
     inbox file.

  2. After moving the entries, Org processes changes to the shared files.
     Some of them are applied directly and without user interaction.
     Examples include changes to tags, TODO state, headline and body
     text. Entries requiring further action are tagged as `FLAGGED'. Org
     marks entries with problems with an error message in the inbox. They
     have to be resolved manually.

  3. Org generates an agenda view for flagged entries for user
     intervention to clean up. For notes stored in flagged entries, Org
     displays them in the echo area when point is on the corresponding
     agenda item.

     ?
           Pressing ? displays the entire flagged note in another
           window. Org also pushes it to the kill ring. To store flagged
           note as a normal note, use ? z C-y C-c C-c. Pressing ? twice
           does these things: first it removes the `FLAGGED' tag;
           second, it removes the flagged note from the property drawer;
           third, it signals that manual editing of the flagged entry is
           now finished.

  From the agenda dispatcher, ? returns to the view to finish processing
  flagged entries. Note that these entries may not be the most recent
  since the mobile application searches files that were last pulled. To
  get an updated agenda view with changes since the last pull, pull
  again.



Footnotes
─────────

[1] For a server to host files, consider using a WebDAV server, such
as [Nextcloud] (<https://nextcloud.com>). Additional help is at this
[FAQ entry]
(<https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav>).

[2] If Emacs is configured for safe storing of passwords, then
configure the variable `org-mobile-encryption-password'; please read
the docstring of that variable.

[3] Symbolic links in `org-directory' need to have the same name as
their targets.

[4] While creating the agendas, Org mode forces ID properties on all
referenced entries, so that these entries can be uniquely identified
if Org Mobile flags them for further action. To avoid setting
properties configure the variable
`org-mobile-force-id-on-agenda-items' to `nil'. Org mode then relies
on outline paths, assuming they are unique.

[5] Checksums are stored automatically in the file `checksums.dat'.

[6] The file will be empty after this operation.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I also used CTAN URL for the minted LaTeX package.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?

[Leslie Watter]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2276 bytes --]

Hello all,

Just a little information:  since Dropbox update their API to 2.0
MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it
will have
to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active
development of MobileOrg
in terms of having this issue [0] solved.

Updating the software could help more than just forking it and publishing
it with another name.  There's
some options (Orgzly, Syncthing) that can be used but none of them are as
usefull as MobileOrg.

So, if anyone could contact Matthew Jones (https://github.com/matburt) and
offer some help
I think that could be a better approach than just forking it. Unfortunately
I cannot help at this point.

Cheers,

LEslie

[0] - https://github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/issues/501

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:17 PM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I asked
>
>   > > Is the WebDAV server code free software?  Can you talk to such a
>   > > server without any nonfree client software?
>
> Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>'s information
> shows that using WebDAV is no problem.
>
>   > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the
>   > worg page:
>   > 1. SSH
>   > 2. Local filesystem
>
> It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those
> methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program
> that could be in f-droid.  It would be useful for someone to do that
> and publish it under a different name.
>
> Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to
> use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg.
>
> Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything
> that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg.
> We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new
> version when that new version is available.
>
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
Leslie H. Watter

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3497 bytes --]