From: Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Emacs i18n
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 13:43:14 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <21691570.QVqMGgByyo@galex-713.eu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87lf633wc3.fsf@zoho.eu>
Le lundi 19 juillet 2021, 03:51:08 CEST Emanuel Berg via Users list for
the GNU Emacs text editor a écrit :
> Jean-Christophe Helary wrote:
> > Doing the UI only is not useful. The UI and the help would
> > be tremendously useful.
>
> Anglo-American beat French to world dominance, accept it.
Nobody told in this thread French had any world dominance. Although you
may note that the concern about english is often raised by french people,
and maybe for some sort of inconscious nationalism or rempent national
aversion toward english due to that previous context, the concern stays
valid, and you cannot cancel an argument validity due to the people who
raise it.
> There is no miniature world of computers where
> everyone speaks French or any other language who badly needs
> translations, drop it.
There is, not only in france, but any non-germanic place I have been
through. English, just like french, is a difficult language, with lot of
vocabulary. You’re living is a small-world utopia that’s nowhere near
even realistic.
Even those who *fluently* speak english are commonly *tired* with it. Even
I, and actually anybody because that’s natural, would choose to read
something in their native(s) language(s) rather than a foreign one, and
doing that would imply less effort, energy spent, hence more reading and
work done than if done through english.
Just to be sure, you’re a native speaker of english right? so how could
you even *know* that? or have you tried to work in mandarin on the ground
that its syntax is said to be simple and flexionless, to say it’s as easy
as in your native language? otherwise, do you have studies showing the
opposite? since you’re not the one bringing the argument, the burden of
proof should fall on us, and currently I’m being lazy at it, but if anyone
brings such studies (which shouldn’t be any more difficult to find than any
study, but I’m bad at searching) I doubt you would have anything to oppose
to that u.u
There are everywhere teachings of CS in english *as a special matter*,
that’s a way to *train* for english because that training is *needed*
because it is nonnatural, and it is a difficulty and people try lowering it
by confronting to it… yet most of courses are in the national language,
not english. Some vocabulary obviously comes from english, and
englishisms are present more often than not, but the grammar, phonology,
orthography, syntax, and most of vocabulary we use stay our national (or
even sometimes, with luck (that means not in france) the local one)
language.
It is up to the point I’ve personally observed that something translated
is perceived as more “user-friendly” than something graphical, variable-
spaced and colored, up to the point that this common cliché of white
monospace text on black background with no graphics, no mouse and none
input but keyboard, that scares many outsiders, newcomers, etc., stays
less deterring than an all english interface. In this respect emacs still
performs badly, and I can’t recommend it to many people I know, especially
non-programmers, because of that (and it would be sad for you to take as
argument “emacs is only for programmers and CS-ists”).
That would be the kind of “user-friendliness”, btw, that may have an
effective impact on making more women or minorities join CS, and moreover
less occidental, as that concern has come more into fashion recently.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-07-19 11:43 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 238+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-07-17 9:27 Emacs i18n Narendra Joshi
2021-07-17 9:36 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-17 9:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-07-17 13:32 ` mrf
2021-07-17 14:01 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-07-17 20:00 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-17 20:57 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-17 22:06 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-07-17 22:55 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-18 2:26 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-07-19 1:53 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-18 6:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-07-19 1:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-19 1:51 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-19 5:28 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-21 5:24 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 6:32 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-21 9:45 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 10:16 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 12:08 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 12:36 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-21 8:28 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 8:39 ` tomas
2021-07-21 9:18 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 10:52 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 11:53 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 12:56 ` Jean Louis
2021-07-21 13:23 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 13:39 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-21 14:05 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 14:47 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-21 17:55 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 18:15 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-21 18:26 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 18:27 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 18:42 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 19:06 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 19:40 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 20:49 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 21:44 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 21:58 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 22:55 ` Stefan Monnier via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 7:05 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-22 8:11 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 8:16 ` tomas
2021-07-22 9:24 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-22 5:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-07-22 10:04 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 21:57 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 7:09 ` tomas
2021-07-22 8:17 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 9:18 ` lisa-asket
2021-07-22 3:48 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-07-22 4:08 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 7:10 ` tomas
2021-07-21 14:22 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 17:02 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 17:49 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-19 11:43 ` Alexandre Garreau [this message]
2021-07-21 6:11 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 7:02 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 8:43 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 10:04 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 10:14 ` tomas
2021-07-21 10:34 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-21 11:16 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 13:01 ` Jean Louis
2021-07-21 13:51 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-22 8:15 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-22 17:32 ` Yuri Khan
2021-07-22 18:02 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-21 7:31 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-21 7:47 ` Thibaut Verron
2021-07-21 9:59 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 10:28 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 11:49 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-21 12:44 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-21 13:20 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-23 6:03 ` Jean Louis
2021-07-23 9:22 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-27 20:52 ` Christopher Dimech
2021-07-17 22:03 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-07-19 1:46 ` Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
2021-07-18 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-07-17 20:06 ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-07-17 22:03 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2021-07-18 6:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-03-20 11:59 Bruno Haible
2019-03-20 16:36 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-20 21:32 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-21 2:14 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <E1h6nE3-0000bt-SW-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21 21:45 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-23 2:28 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-23 7:55 ` Yuri Khan
[not found] ` <CAP_d_8WjQwAtcWCfkjXHtc-dqYyBfnaP0+9L8KK6eCp4r_ZsPQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 17:50 ` Ineiev
2019-03-24 1:43 ` Richard Stallman
[not found] ` <E1h7WOF-0006T8-Be-iW7gFb+/I3LZHJUXO5efmti2O/JbrIOy@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-23 21:48 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 1:47 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22 20:50 ` Chusslove Illich
[not found] ` <87h8bx5ijn.fsf-i9wRM+HIrmlRTR8OWt4JRw@public.gmane.org>
2019-03-21 2:55 ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-21 2:14 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-22 1:26 ` Bruno Haible
2019-03-23 2:29 ` Richard Stallman
2019-02-18 0:35 bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
2019-02-27 21:36 ` Juri Linkov
2019-02-28 3:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-02-28 21:33 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-01 3:59 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-02 20:55 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-03 3:04 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-03 15:31 ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-03 20:57 ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-04 1:46 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-06 9:38 ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-06 11:23 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 20:33 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 20:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-21 21:03 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:21 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:34 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:56 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 22:05 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 23:46 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-22 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 16:10 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 16:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 17:16 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-22 17:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-22 23:17 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-21 21:17 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-21 21:59 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-22 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-23 21:50 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 3:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-24 21:55 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-24 23:31 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:32 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:31 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-26 16:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 16:22 ` Stefan Monnier
2019-03-26 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-26 22:35 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-27 3:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-28 14:56 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2019-03-28 15:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27 2:34 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-26 23:16 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-27 1:35 ` Paul Eggert
2019-04-24 6:39 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-04-24 20:18 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 3:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25 9:04 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-25 21:02 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-26 3:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-27 23:06 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-25 10:52 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-25 15:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-25 21:11 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-25 22:05 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-27 21:22 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-28 11:03 ` Mattias Engdegård
2019-03-04 3:27 ` Emacs i18n (was: bug#34520: delete-matching-lines should report how many lines it deleted) Richard Stallman
2019-03-04 16:36 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-04 18:37 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-04 19:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-05 2:09 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-05 21:58 ` Emacs i18n Juri Linkov
2019-03-06 2:16 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 18:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:52 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 8:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:07 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:33 ` Elias Mårtenson
2019-03-08 8:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 3:11 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-09 7:54 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 10:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 6:07 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-11 1:20 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11 3:52 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-12 3:31 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-12 3:31 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 8:45 ` Yuri Khan
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 6:14 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-10 3:05 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 3:42 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 17:19 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 18:24 ` martin rudalics
2019-03-07 18:44 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:25 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08 7:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 4:18 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:11 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-06 17:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 18:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-06 19:39 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 19:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:33 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 16:06 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 4:35 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-07 16:04 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-08 4:09 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-11 21:48 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 22:51 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-12 21:45 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-17 21:23 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:20 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-18 21:55 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-19 20:40 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-11 23:59 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-12 9:16 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-06 19:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-06 20:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 1:43 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-07 3:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 3:44 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-07 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-07 22:29 ` Juri Linkov
2019-03-08 1:48 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08 8:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 15:11 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-08 20:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 2:44 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2019-03-09 6:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 8:37 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 10:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 11:27 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 17:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:55 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:47 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:04 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-09 20:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 19:22 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 19:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 20:48 ` Paul Eggert
2019-03-09 20:08 ` Michael Albinus
2019-03-10 3:09 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-10 13:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-08 7:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-03-09 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2019-03-08 4:11 ` Richard Stallman
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