From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Make all tree-sitter modes optional Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2023 16:56:51 +0200 Message-ID: <20d7e0c0-d701-6672-4e6c-e005aac128db@yandex.ru> References: <83h6x5xym7.fsf@gnu.org> <83h6wr6gmz.fsf@gnu.org> <868ri140sr.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <83fsc92gbz.fsf@gnu.org> <83cz6ccagy.fsf@gnu.org> <838rgzaqmj.fsf@gnu.org> <83pmaaaicy.fsf@gnu.org> <87y1owl8eg.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ttzkl6mw.fsf@yahoo.com> <83a61c1hjj.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9481"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.4.2 Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, juri@linkov.net, casouri@gmail.com, larsi@gnus.org, theo@thornhill.no, jostein@secure.kjonigsen.net, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 17 15:58:11 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pT2Bf-0002Ga-1E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 15:58:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pT2AW-0006b3-Il; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:57:00 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pT2AV-0006aq-4w for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:56:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pT2AT-0003eD-9v; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 09:56:58 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id m17so5757445edc.9; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 06:56:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wBIIKmEmWhiyHaoULYcCvKbqdLdb/dkJrWYz1LFxQ88=; b=JFjvmhjAJ+kuAV8UVlVGUpKjcWmK3+vPPUmdS+CVFuaBG1BS9jlg8WxaJzsRJmOC1M hOM763Nhefo/nlTw9FJ52hE21hYJEZL2pLoycf1/z7TmkofFpx5Z8i73Eit27U1GgWfu bdGL7AEqvaPQ2FDrjJoaXburiwYwRg2A2tV+Vbx1Rfclmlp7cdBpuw5eB2yVV5KKT0LE I4b1JQGGeXyqzaYgtw7YVuzkaElQ60uGZiWk9XPiDTpo85wgCfbZTsuAQpq8kP31oPyL dutqqjBjKsw3kGwC8gmqdayGQu3AM2vezMklIEukZSQhkRU6HexDhloWdRvBxIGBv/1c 5jBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:from:references:cc:to :content-language:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id :sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wBIIKmEmWhiyHaoULYcCvKbqdLdb/dkJrWYz1LFxQ88=; b=RvqwvnmJ8zFBSAYXVZ0wCi1PFeIepp0XrL+WgCACv17kBJJ/kH9RcXmziIfQc1yMxq EQ4vZQX5QRT59nCjxXhv+Qe5WLSOGPi6zAV6SkcHnJTK7uXtsZsWmzoKg552m16OyjvC BPMBRkDSOI4fmRPyzNU10O8MV34nvZtIbGqkej5Khi6YItlCkbOdln1bpogx3p8UBQk9 13UIq0CzyUP5eh8Mo/LWVcb+TAt4B2lKAQAE918D0dYyBdiXHl0TuaWkL0mS9AbVVhTB fLSrTy0iYdyur1sXPtitQ1JWM6FNJ2REzMn11gMOpB8Ll7KBi3M8Xsk2jfmlPjXIYkfT LYeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXt+XtN90AuP9u4wVQNDSfKshUoxhkTAYT/Ecs7SHeCwhNH4NAk 8vuqgbP49ajCdSXLfob03uNEGPIrk9s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/wo5dMuFFcP54An2KIK4UCnOWlODD8XRFQQ4VgAv+rWqK3YZkDp5rjxgjFAIkuOab6VeqHqg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:756:b0:4aa:da7c:4c5c with SMTP id p22-20020a056402075600b004aada7c4c5cmr1246644edy.34.1676645814234; Fri, 17 Feb 2023 06:56:54 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] ([46.251.119.176]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id s24-20020a508d18000000b004acb2c8aeaesm2410412eds.85.2023.02.17.06.56.52 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 17 Feb 2023 06:56:53 -0800 (PST) Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <83a61c1hjj.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52f; envelope-from=raaahh@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x52f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.256, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:303490 Archived-At: On 17/02/2023 16:40, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I understand that > you disagree, but I respectfully request that you-all assume that > either I'm right here (in that I consider the alternatives to be > worse), or if I'm wrong, it is for me to make this mistake and learn > from it. Please give me some minimal credit that I have thought long > and hard about the possible alternatives, and didn't arrive at this > conclusion easily, and that I'm also fully aware that changing the > behavior by loading a package is not good, in and of itself. I suppose there is not much to add here, and the mistake (if it is one, respectfully) is yours to make. I just don't understand what's your plan here regarding Emacs 29. What's going to happen next? What kind of feedback will you be looking for? What I think will happen, is people will try out the new modes, some will suffer the inconveniences we warned about here and possibly think less of Emacs as a result; others will avoid those problems by accident; yet a lot more users will never try these new modes and thus avoid the problems as well. If we're lucky, we get a couple of new bug reports associated with it, maybe 1-6 months after the release: a lot of users don't report problems, much less these less obvious ones, where the behavior doesn't end up in a "error" written somewhere. The reports will likely repeat some of what's already been said. At what point does this turn into some kind of conclusion, and a teaching moment, so to speak?