ideas for customize

ideas for customize

[Samuel Wales]

Recently two people expressed different opinions on the value of
customize.  I hope that this email helps create more understanding.

A lot of people seem to find customize irksome.  I very much
appreciate the work that went into it and the philosophy
behind it, but I admit that I, too, don't use it (except for
faces because I don't know how to do those otherwise).

Here are some extemporaneous ideas for possible ways to
improve it.

These are just my impressions and some of them might be
incorrect.  I might have missed a few things.

However, I hope that they are useful.  :)

  - the customizable entries should stand out.  but some
    are in a special face while others are not.  help text
    and docstrings look the same as the entries.  a special
    face, perhaps red, used for all customizable entries and
    not used for anything else, would help.
  - help text does not take into account window-width.  it
    should fill according to window-width minus a fixed
    amount.  this should also optionally occur for docstring
    text, ideally trying to notice, filladapt-style, when
    there is a table, a list, or code.
  - it is not easy to navigate with the keyboard.  n and p
    get stuck on values, then you have to manually go to the
    next widget.
  - too many keystrokes to try various settings (e.g. try
    various faces).
  - perhaps something like orgstruct minor mode could be
    used to organize the customize buffer so that users do
    not have to learn a special way of interacting.
  - a more flexible infrastructure for customize-changed,
    which also works for large packages that do not come
    with emacs, might be nice.
  - the difference between "undo edits" and "reset to saved"
    is not clear.  rewording would help.
  - it is not clear how to .emacs -ize custom code.  simple
    for variables, less so for faces.  also not clear when
    to do so, in the case of faces.  for example, will a
    restart of emacs be necessary?
  - having the entries in custom-set-variables and
    custom-set-faces include the (useless for it but useful
    for the user) setq or set-face (or whatever it is) would
    make it easy to cut and paste from the custom section to
    your own .emacs.
  - it is not easy to hide and unhide.  a key would be
    easier than buttons.
    - have help text tell you how.
  - trees should be easier to fold and unfold, perhaps with
    a key.
  - a command for next and previous (perhaps redefining n
    and p) which also optionally hides and unhides
    everything as you navigate, would also help.
  - it seems to say changed outside of customized even when
    it is not.  have not tracked this down.  comment
    perhaps.
  - choosing numbers to choose the state requires a
    translation step.  selecting by letter would be less
    cognitively burdensome.

Again these are just possibilities for improving the (imo)
good start that is customize.

-- 
For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly
causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science.  Do
you care about the world?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

RE: ideas for customize

[Drew Adams]

Please send your (good) suggestions to emacs-devel@gnu.org.

Improvement of Customize has been discussed over and over in that mailing list,
but it's worth continuing to try to progress. One of the problems is a lack of
developers interested in implementing changes to Customize. Perhaps you would
like to work on that? Anyway, please share your ideas with emacs-devel@gnu.org.

Fwd: ideas for customize

[Samuel Wales]

I am not a subscriber, but Drew suggested that I send these ideas to
this list.

These are not huge issues for me, but I hope they help others.

Thanks.

P.S.  I just thought of another idea: put (customizable) on variables
and faces in apropos mode so that the user knows that it isn't just an
internal variable.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Samuel Wales
Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 16:49
Subject: ideas for customize
To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org


Recently two people expressed different opinions on the value of
customize.  I hope that this email helps create more understanding.

A lot of people seem to find customize irksome.  I very much
appreciate the work that went into it and the philosophy
behind it, but I admit that I, too, don't use it (except for
faces because I don't know how to do those otherwise).

Here are some extemporaneous ideas for possible ways to
improve it.

These are just my impressions and some of them might be
incorrect.  I might have missed a few things.

However, I hope that they are useful.  :)

 - the customizable entries should stand out.  but some
   are in a special face while others are not.  help text
   and docstrings look the same as the entries.  a special
   face, perhaps red, used for all customizable entries and
   not used for anything else, would help.
 - help text does not take into account window-width.  it
   should fill according to window-width minus a fixed
   amount.  this should also optionally occur for docstring
   text, ideally trying to notice, filladapt-style, when
   there is a table, a list, or code.
 - it is not easy to navigate with the keyboard.  n and p
   get stuck on values, then you have to manually go to the
   next widget.
 - too many keystrokes to try various settings (e.g. try
   various faces).
 - perhaps something like orgstruct minor mode could be
   used to organize the customize buffer so that users do
   not have to learn a special way of interacting.
 - a more flexible infrastructure for customize-changed,
   which also works for large packages that do not come
   with emacs, might be nice.
 - the difference between "undo edits" and "reset to saved"
   is not clear.  rewording would help.
 - it is not clear how to .emacs -ize custom code.  simple
   for variables, less so for faces.  also not clear when
   to do so, in the case of faces.  for example, will a
   restart of emacs be necessary?
 - having the entries in custom-set-variables and
   custom-set-faces include the (useless for it but useful
   for the user) setq or set-face (or whatever it is) would
   make it easy to cut and paste from the custom section to
   your own .emacs.
 - it is not easy to hide and unhide.  a key would be
   easier than buttons.
   - have help text tell you how.
 - trees should be easier to fold and unfold, perhaps with
   a key.
 - a command for next and previous (perhaps redefining n
   and p) which also optionally hides and unhides
   everything as you navigate, would also help.
 - it seems to say changed outside of customized even when
   it is not.  have not tracked this down.  comment
   perhaps.
 - choosing numbers to choose the state requires a
   translation step.  selecting by letter would be less
   cognitively burdensome.

Again these are just possibilities for improving the (imo)
good start that is customize.

--
For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly
causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science.  Do
you care about the world?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm



-- 
For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly
causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science.  Do
you care about the world?
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm

Re: ideas for customize

[Samuel Wales]

Hi Drew,

I have severe typing issues, so cannot develop it, but I will forward
it.  Thanks.

BTW, are you the icicles person?  I keep being tantalized yet
intimidated by it.

For what it's worth, what would convince me to try it again is if it
could be set to emulate ido (without that changing anything else).
Dunno if it's possible or if you're interested, but thought I would
let you know.

This would include emulating ido's use in org-mode for outline paths.

Cheers.

RE: ideas for customize

[Drew Adams]

> BTW, are you the icicles person?  I keep being tantalized yet
> intimidated by it.

;-)

All you really need to get started is this 12-sentence `README for Non-Readers':
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/Icicles_-_Nutshell_View#READMEforNonReaders

Icicles is like Emacs: there is a lot there if you want to look for it, but you
don't need to read the whole manual to start putting it to use.

Icicles minibuffer interaction uses vanilla Emacs TAB completion as its default
behavior. If you stick to what Emacs offers with TAB, you will notice little
difference.

If you don't happen to know about certain Icicles features, you don't need to
worry about them. You can learn about them and try them out little by little -
or not at all.

> For what it's worth, what would convince me to try it again is if it
> could be set to emulate ido (without that changing anything else).
> Dunno if it's possible or if you're interested, but thought I would
> let you know.

No, Icicles and Ido have very different UI models and uses of the minibuffer.
Don't expect either to reflect the interaction of the other. 

And, since each handles the minibuffer in its own way, they cannot be used
together. (Iswitchb can, however, be used with Icicles, and its buffer-switching
is somewhat like Ido's.)

That said, some of the interaction and some of the features of Icicles and Ido
are similar. And Icicles offers lots of customization possibilities, some of
which might seem a little more like Ido behavior.

> This would include emulating ido's use in org-mode for outline paths.

I don't use Org mode or Ido, so I don't know what's involved here, but feel free
to make a suggestion for Icicles wrt Org mode support. Either email me or post a
suggestion here:
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/IciclesDiscussion

Thx - Drew