From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Samuel Wales" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Fwd: ideas for customize Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 17:11:41 -0700 Message-ID: <20524da70901031611w9dbb6c0y826d9bbae77fc5a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20524da70901031549t392be529v2f5104547427554a@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1231041888 28587 80.91.229.12 (4 Jan 2009 04:04:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 04:04:48 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 04 05:05:58 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LJKFC-0006Nt-Vv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 05:05:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49717 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LJKDw-0006G3-PB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:04:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGao-0005S5-SS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:11:46 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGao-0005Rt-DY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:11:46 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=45606 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGao-0005Rq-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:11:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ew0-f13.google.com ([209.85.219.13]:41874) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LJGan-0003wF-Q3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:11:46 -0500 Original-Received: by ewy6 with SMTP id 6so7597576ewy.18 for ; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 16:11:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=LkMrsCsIVACWofHjZVLZcyHPnrCJWo+ErQhHxbJeJmI=; b=B9bTwvavDHXuOKRnA1Dwk/gpZc54tWcezrxXSUD5pryVHMYRnVzZQqiTXVFFYTcdaP eNcvv4tssei18VHV/UpsFWSk2/wRb3tN5NZ+on8DhH9zbiOzNfeSIjc2rsCV3keIZ03r S0M6aeYa0r564NO0bNu5+XWTRRujSSq/45+yo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=LN60LuZ39WVry5q30Ha9LI+GRwoxMZECVoOlOFOjws/CEHc9fidbQ42svyXMYh1XPF RADQhoGtzxD4U4ResNMsRQ/Ku4Unhuuh7LNl9J3JPbLX+dxfL1w+ubfcUxGaB5tgmmZn sP87cChPwT5khdReVJL1qOSG+fpWmowT5UAbk= Original-Received: by 10.210.35.17 with SMTP id i17mr848464ebi.140.1231027901707; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 16:11:41 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.210.90.16 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:11:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20524da70901031549t392be529v2f5104547427554a@mail.gmail.com> Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:04:21 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:107564 Archived-At: I am not a subscriber, but Drew suggested that I send these ideas to this list. These are not huge issues for me, but I hope they help others. Thanks. P.S. I just thought of another idea: put (customizable) on variables and faces in apropos mode so that the user knows that it isn't just an internal variable. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Samuel Wales Date: Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 16:49 Subject: ideas for customize To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Recently two people expressed different opinions on the value of customize. I hope that this email helps create more understanding. A lot of people seem to find customize irksome. I very much appreciate the work that went into it and the philosophy behind it, but I admit that I, too, don't use it (except for faces because I don't know how to do those otherwise). Here are some extemporaneous ideas for possible ways to improve it. These are just my impressions and some of them might be incorrect. I might have missed a few things. However, I hope that they are useful. :) - the customizable entries should stand out. but some are in a special face while others are not. help text and docstrings look the same as the entries. a special face, perhaps red, used for all customizable entries and not used for anything else, would help. - help text does not take into account window-width. it should fill according to window-width minus a fixed amount. this should also optionally occur for docstring text, ideally trying to notice, filladapt-style, when there is a table, a list, or code. - it is not easy to navigate with the keyboard. n and p get stuck on values, then you have to manually go to the next widget. - too many keystrokes to try various settings (e.g. try various faces). - perhaps something like orgstruct minor mode could be used to organize the customize buffer so that users do not have to learn a special way of interacting. - a more flexible infrastructure for customize-changed, which also works for large packages that do not come with emacs, might be nice. - the difference between "undo edits" and "reset to saved" is not clear. rewording would help. - it is not clear how to .emacs -ize custom code. simple for variables, less so for faces. also not clear when to do so, in the case of faces. for example, will a restart of emacs be necessary? - having the entries in custom-set-variables and custom-set-faces include the (useless for it but useful for the user) setq or set-face (or whatever it is) would make it easy to cut and paste from the custom section to your own .emacs. - it is not easy to hide and unhide. a key would be easier than buttons. - have help text tell you how. - trees should be easier to fold and unfold, perhaps with a key. - a command for next and previous (perhaps redefining n and p) which also optionally hides and unhides everything as you navigate, would also help. - it seems to say changed outside of customized even when it is not. have not tracked this down. comment perhaps. - choosing numbers to choose the state requires a translation step. selecting by letter would be less cognitively burdensome. Again these are just possibilities for improving the (imo) good start that is customize. -- For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science. Do you care about the world? http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm -- For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science. Do you care about the world? http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm