From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Samuel Wales" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: ideas for customize Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:49:26 -0700 Message-ID: <20524da70901031549t392be529v2f5104547427554a@mail.gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1231026599 28702 80.91.229.12 (3 Jan 2009 23:49:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 23:49:59 +0000 (UTC) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 04 00:51:09 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LJGGr-0007zr-47 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 04 Jan 2009 00:51:09 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45184 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGFb-0006T0-RX for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:49:51 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGFI-0006Sn-T9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:49:32 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGFH-0006SS-T4 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:49:32 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=60082 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LJGFH-0006SP-PG for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:49:31 -0500 Original-Received: from ey-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.78.146]:20717) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LJGFH-0002gW-8Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 18:49:31 -0500 Original-Received: by ey-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 4so773839eyg.24 for ; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:49:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=j4P/KrqwU5OxCUWtaIPeu0Z0mbA6DUEUTrceQK0l4X4=; b=pXvZdE9VnDiqnuRj/DdL71xgayA3c5AcvDBgXvdMEvXINHhs0N7Uro1jNN18f/gY5/ kqcimbmUV1wEsuFT3ZooTG+RfOJKcz4HhnfOIEyGdR4eXxwJ07139WnsCuM8iMuSd2E8 ZgBWGUDl5gG3wydLypRA6LWmAmqr3KJunwcyE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition; b=DeqlEjtS2r1RWGL25uIaDXK2Hv+E1tm2o6TOSYUGlF0OyzOLb986wwOECSpG3XVJIZ s03kpAq/y8gtEkRNq8I0ZCRo92fURk1DUtBh5IPEoT3/MkjPRaVAZgZjJDTnKy9BtdyE 6fhHsN2WSgVjlcBhKguMgxO1K4okuV5sYiNcU= Original-Received: by 10.210.38.5 with SMTP id l5mr17651642ebl.62.1231026566515; Sat, 03 Jan 2009 15:49:26 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.210.90.16 with HTTP; Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:49:26 -0800 (PST) Content-Disposition: inline X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:61042 Archived-At: Recently two people expressed different opinions on the value of customize. I hope that this email helps create more understanding. A lot of people seem to find customize irksome. I very much appreciate the work that went into it and the philosophy behind it, but I admit that I, too, don't use it (except for faces because I don't know how to do those otherwise). Here are some extemporaneous ideas for possible ways to improve it. These are just my impressions and some of them might be incorrect. I might have missed a few things. However, I hope that they are useful. :) - the customizable entries should stand out. but some are in a special face while others are not. help text and docstrings look the same as the entries. a special face, perhaps red, used for all customizable entries and not used for anything else, would help. - help text does not take into account window-width. it should fill according to window-width minus a fixed amount. this should also optionally occur for docstring text, ideally trying to notice, filladapt-style, when there is a table, a list, or code. - it is not easy to navigate with the keyboard. n and p get stuck on values, then you have to manually go to the next widget. - too many keystrokes to try various settings (e.g. try various faces). - perhaps something like orgstruct minor mode could be used to organize the customize buffer so that users do not have to learn a special way of interacting. - a more flexible infrastructure for customize-changed, which also works for large packages that do not come with emacs, might be nice. - the difference between "undo edits" and "reset to saved" is not clear. rewording would help. - it is not clear how to .emacs -ize custom code. simple for variables, less so for faces. also not clear when to do so, in the case of faces. for example, will a restart of emacs be necessary? - having the entries in custom-set-variables and custom-set-faces include the (useless for it but useful for the user) setq or set-face (or whatever it is) would make it easy to cut and paste from the custom section to your own .emacs. - it is not easy to hide and unhide. a key would be easier than buttons. - have help text tell you how. - trees should be easier to fold and unfold, perhaps with a key. - a command for next and previous (perhaps redefining n and p) which also optionally hides and unhides everything as you navigate, would also help. - it seems to say changed outside of customized even when it is not. have not tracked this down. comment perhaps. - choosing numbers to choose the state requires a translation step. selecting by letter would be less cognitively burdensome. Again these are just possibilities for improving the (imo) good start that is customize. -- For personal gain, myalgic encephalomyelitis denialists are knowingly causing further suffering and death by grossly corrupting science. Do you care about the world? http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/What_Is_ME_What_Is_CFS.htm