From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Discussions about key bindings Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:08 +0100 Message-ID: <20210212122908.GC4486@tuxteam.de> References: <87ft21tsb2.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="da4uJneut+ArUgXk" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34673"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 12 13:30:26 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lAXac-0008w9-4G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:30:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41886 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAXab-0006kL-4I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 07:30:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58738) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAXZT-0006Ic-2y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 07:29:15 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:33842) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lAXZQ-00033x-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 07:29:14 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:Date; bh=LisIgDcp54oxmTCA/od6cVFHJDbpfX74ArDlpwxMOSY=; b=cumkFKwTzH67ROWnjRK+TMSo9APr4MnHEVqUZY/9Wa99aGaTU8Q/I5x6G9xZLC5yP1rr3f6a0kUCWeQwNPQJEX8ZVaYLIR5/AMEOAzpKEDMTLQ8I8V9RHxa/UFzcNLvO8CSXKissV6rNeIE9X3BAPinDHUl36eWqeL9/j71HPMROwOdVcDuuSf0vV6Z9aaZevp6cj4oFXom2O2IzLsHYt1GZyIbJ8uOp/0chhofCtgMjpil0FoIU7nXxetDQP0zqu3iGn4LQ6RuQVVwzGVMqzZTK94tt1TVa4XDPvxHILBwMSAm2qGSReBp8GKxC3+4xmCWjcoYcAyg5EF41sJw5WA==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1lAXZM-0003cb-Kq; Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:29:08 +0100 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87ft21tsb2.fsf@gnus.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:264501 Archived-At: --da4uJneut+ArUgXk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Fri, Feb 12, 2021 at 12:54:25PM +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > I find the recent spate of discussions about key bindings for > third-party code rather befuddling [...] :-) I must admit that, while I find that problem space quite interesting, I lost track of most of that discussion. I'm impressed by those folks still following along and staying pretty constructive. There are many dimensions to the problem. OTOH, *my* [1] bindings are very close to *my* heart, so a hostile reaction on *my* part whenever tries to take away some of that is, at least, understandable. On the other hand, if everyone has his/her private bindings, communication becomes more difficult. Picture someone in a forum writing "then hit C-x C-f" -- but IMO the problem goes deeper; some kind of "UI fragmentation" occurs, where part of the community perhaps doesn't /understand/ other parts, because they're seeing (or experiencing) very different things. Somewhere between those two poles, life happens :-) There are more dimensions, with poles at each end (keyboard has been mentioned: CTRL-\ is easy on an US keyboard; I have a German one, there it's awkward; What's important on CTRL-Y: the label on the key, or the physical position on the keyboard (for US people: in the middle of the upper row, for Germans in the lower left). And so on. Up to now, Emacs hasn't taken that into account. Should it? Should it not? What about a Thai keyboard [2]? Emacs, btw, has accumulated an exceptional history of keeping together an incredibly diverse bunch. Watch other UI or "user experience" discussions to see what I mean. I think Emacs can be proud of that. I don't have a good idea to make the current discussion more fruitful, except perhaps that it might be good to take a step back and try to get a grip of the problem in a more abstract (and perhaps non-technical) way. Cheers [1] *my* used as a generic placeholder [2] Kedmanee? Pattachote? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Kedmanee_keyboard_layout https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_Pattachote_keyboard_layout - t --da4uJneut+ArUgXk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAmAmdJQACgkQBcgs9XrR2karwgCfUc342gS2sZ43Yf6SNzj05DH/ ZBEAnRQte7p/16YPXdL65Whq8IjhlXEI =PGG6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --da4uJneut+ArUgXk--