From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Marcel Ventosa Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:45:31 +0700 Message-ID: <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13226"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jean Louis , Richard Stallman , Thibaut Verron , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 15:47:57 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTQ5N-0003Js-0J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:47:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39738 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTQ5M-0002Qg-1u for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:47:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34438) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTQ3f-0001By-7q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:46:11 -0400 Original-Received: from aibo.runbox.com ([91.220.196.211]:58346) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTQ3U-0003Gg-La; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:46:09 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=runbox.com; s=selector1; h=Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-Type:MIME-Version: References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=bR8B5085i6hwoVRcJkm8zo4vXJPKYny0afzFzB84vhg=; b=Ch7i5MchExz7YZ7Gk/yPYyMnPo HvLT1fXI6Ix8aPm7yI/+nzAz/x2VejH1TRKDj/+QxfzwTP4fE+A4zPxyLRua4RA5b/Kv9umOF5iFc F2FogQh+3ZvpKtwADHFHbvZkDYPJk1aqMUxVJ0txG4S49zCwP90AIRUqhO9pMLQB6QUdWRCOxqvu/ HzyooVVotgPiyKQrm/apstOJq0DBAnUHZL3uOTAv7Xjh7kccwkbk6V7GxcrJ70U7bZ/+2+PEKulj/ Nb7bN0dAQ3taiVCdamlPOhsKBOHZQmCJUYWzdn7Wa1tdc/wcoqG5oVatmlmXWH9B2DxdYrLo9J34q V4VgexHg==; Original-Received: from [10.9.9.72] (helo=submission01.runbox) by mailtransmit03.runbox with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1kTQ3J-0002Co-Tu; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:45:50 +0200 Original-Received: by submission01.runbox with esmtpsa [Authenticated alias (585453)] (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) id 1kTQ3H-0003kB-Mi; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:45:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.7 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=91.220.196.211; envelope-from=mve1@runbox.com; helo=aibo.runbox.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/16 09:45:51 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = ??? X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257810 Archived-At: On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 15:17:16 +0300 Dmitry Gutov wrote: > Do you think the "mockery" is entirely without merit? Yes, and I think mockery precludes understanding, particularly as we are dealing with a thoughtful man and a well developed and time tested philosophy, successfully put into practice against the odds. > ignore a project that has done a lot to popularize Emacs over the years. I fail to understand the narrative that pushes popularity over all else. What would be the use of making Emacs the most popular editor if it discarded the philosophy that brought it about? I've noticed a trend of speaking about Emacs and other free software projects as if they were "commodities" and "products," but as I see them, it is precisely because they are community driven projects that they are not "commodities" or "products". > I think it's both insulting to its developers, and stinks of thought > police. Far from the idea of user freedom I hope to expect from GNU and FSF. You are conflating freedom, as in the freedom to do whatever you want, with software freedom as defined by GNU, which succintly means that users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve software. I don't understand how refusing to draw attention to a repository that recommends proprietary software turns anyone into the "thought police". I see no reason why the GNU project or the FSF should raise awareness of solutions that go against their founding philosophy, except to raise awareness to its dangers. Further up the list, I read RMS suggesting mentioning MELPA with a disclaimer and warning about its use. In fact, one of the most worrying aspects of this survey idea, as I see it, is the suggested use of non-free Javascript to implement it. > it is unfortunate how Emacs leadership does little to follow the > external, "unofficial" polls. What do you mean by this?