From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Naoya Yamashita Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Include leaf in Emacs distribution Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:35:22 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <20201012.103522.1802478978485184324.conao3@gmail.com> References: <20201008.103747.1339582189858984269.conao3@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24064"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: johnw@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: stefankangas@gmail.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 03:36:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRmky-0006A9-32 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 03:36:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57116 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRmkx-00041T-2J for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:36:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40200) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRmkM-0003bl-To for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:35:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x443.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::443]:39447) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRmkL-0000Uz-1w; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:35:30 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x443.google.com with SMTP id n14so12067147pff.6; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 18:35:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:message-id:to:cc:subject:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zIiFT5edL23jwEeToyolZvJTat1pIeejq+CS6tclbrk=; b=QBVrZvq4ZgCk/90q8MThZ8YxFSrGUrftCx2ZSKKrcLU/DbEH/IoAkBqZ4Uez6tIHWf JND7eKg8QQAqThyo32CdkoI3wOacJWTRDOFbbn67c9mxzGW35MSDJngLwHRK/F0ndZJ8 BJpEw4kCz9r39PcA2Z9lHMKjHLwNxDsQFFUk1GUOXXwyx24EW1GiMZYj2f5rvMVwYvty 4Mn/vgLOzutxPMMMexLi8zT7lhOn4QEjpb/7/nfeQv+IDncvPvdWZsa66gxP7+0Cv+hy kwXs3FrnB8SV/MmupXVq4EEhJ+aKTOk/SmKH8AesxkEHoLEzcDzYlGO91UUI3HaH73p4 Q1cw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:message-id:to:cc:subject:from:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zIiFT5edL23jwEeToyolZvJTat1pIeejq+CS6tclbrk=; b=H5eWvL0lpCasQ8zMtag+iAWwtdu3YzaTc9B3HOtQYG7tyNB90qCcTlx80SUiJXH7nc KrZVcb+r3gmS6P1Nuw/+SjETiP0gFpuX2pNBBw8orQ1ZkVMhvcmglHYkM42XfisGNQeC YEYuUnVf3dC5vk6pOO2oU92kUpMmaOBeWecf8bQUxBuJfV3nCS1RbMvWCa//CVlRTTgA Q/Cy7e06n7knaSazJKopzsR0XsDOmOQdnIUkiCjAOaQP3pPp+LyZoxooNoVdCgkmMUrU fdXY2kyY2VsbOhkZ94HCyMEaJZyMpaLOHtNPLOwY1t6xzyKttSmLWMNiixJb81A6xDlG NxSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5324Ce/S62esNERnpH9fphiY7ZVy1ng2MZXrO9H2J9exbmeDIhzX cm9fpp9S3XfF4mRmDpIcBzU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJww6pPeN/47zOBhZk2DfTce8BdQ/k/o4GRzyTM3+Tz96AQnfSQc46R9yzvlN47rX/nCm5673Q== X-Received: by 2002:a62:6496:0:b029:155:b152:f0cf with SMTP id y144-20020a6264960000b0290155b152f0cfmr8572234pfb.75.1602466527066; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 18:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (p210141-ipngn200407niho.hiroshima.ocn.ne.jp. [118.4.79.141]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o20sm18371350pgh.63.2020.10.11.18.35.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256 bits=256/256); Sun, 11 Oct 2020 18:35:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Mew version 6.8 on Emacs 27.1 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::443; envelope-from=conao3@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x443.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257429 Archived-At: > Thanks for your work. FWIW, here are my two cents. > > First, the copyright issues with use-package are being worked on, see: > https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package/issues/282 > > Once that is worked out, we could include both use-package and leaf in > Emacs, only one of them, or both. It is good that we have two packages > here, since it gives us more options. Yes I've known that. You can submit topic after the issue is resolved. > I have looked at the leaf package before, but I could never figure out > why I would want to use it instead of use-package. They are very > similar, and the functionality seems to be mostly overlapping. I think > that we should perhaps consider why we even have two packages here. > Could the functionality of one be absorbed by the other? Are the > differences really that important? But maybe I'm just missing > something. > > Personally, I'd rather not see two very similar packages in Emacs unless > there are important differences and sufficiently strong reasons. It is your choice, Nothing bad. >From my point of view the syntax of use-package is confusing. For example, :when is naturally designed to evaluate a given S-expression and is only enabled when non-nil is returned, but :disabled is not. That is, (use-package flymake :disabled t) and (use-package flymake :disabled nil) will be converted to nil, respectively. This is unnatural. Also, :when can be a free S-expression, but not :disabled. Other keyword, :mode and :hook specify a cons cell, but :custom specifies a list. This can be confusing for newcomers. Both issue are solved in my leaf. > One starting point here is that use-package seems to be more widely used > and known. If this is correct, I guess leaf unfortunately has a bit of > an uphill battle to show some significant improvement over use-package. As I wrote in another email, use-package was created in 2012 and has been distributed by MELPA since 2013. The number and visibility of users is because of its history and because it's the first package in this field. And with that many users, it's hard to solve these problems because the syntax needs to be changed.