From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: tomas@tuxteam.de Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:17:12 +0200 Message-ID: <20200915211712.GA13214@tuxteam.de> References: <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> <57f5a019-1d3a-5d58-8241-0b9b4f324cec@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28138"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: chad , Juri Linkov , EMACS development team To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 15 23:18:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIILB-0007Cv-Ji for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:18:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58170 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIILA-0007SU-HJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:18:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44376) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIKY-00071F-KY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:17:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:45723) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIKU-0001JW-2j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:17:37 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=ZTkT3Y0WZtxwrghRemrPx0RJqJLUBW53aRdHw3rfGII=; b=ERXMqxW8AGhQ4XV3DHrzVvJ6YJkD5556OT0z41GcW5gWL3b0lX+oKs85ljMLGZp9/q4+FQ+xtQLDG0OvuDw0e2fJgjq7Ud7f1Zlt07v729nG3tYqFpf3RoItRwDhL3UyLOsqhCR2gOhbKvx4k6OPAgqvgQFOazM1Ys9iWbT6YmNqWzkWcNHavOyldr49IeVaov2H170fERBRs8Ke4DLGUChE/OWwhhqHy9MQU1L+tP+IUuFJcv91sEsR6zDjpfVJqCjyjMdncS3rh7545izVA2yBA+MlylG8X2AlGZy1zzyfsGnxEgm0zM3OLIQ/AUXPMMcUKMbNg/FZ62txBlV/yQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIK8-0003eZ-86; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:17:12 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <57f5a019-1d3a-5d58-8241-0b9b4f324cec@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 17:17:31 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255797 Archived-At: --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 09:27:42PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote: [...] > >This is exactly the point I was putting in question: My > >take is that popularity is part of a giant feedback loop, [...] > A feedback loop is of course there. >=20 > But since we're not in marketing department, and we're not outlining > a promotional campaign, it's also irrelevant. I think it's relevant, inasmuch as we should try to understand where things come from, and especially how they impact user freedom whenever we consider emulating them. > We're not living in a vacuum, and we try to help real people. If a > feature, or a UI design, or etc, has reached a significant level of > popularity, adopting it in our program is likely to be beneficial. > When someone comes in with just basic familiarity of other programs > such as VS Code, and manages to become productive enough in Emacs > faster because of that, it _is_ good. >=20 > It's far from the only consideration we should make, Exactly. > but scoffing at "popular" misses the point. I'm not for scoffing. But most definitely for a critical valuation and for an understanding where things come from. Some "features" coming from our "commercial competitors" may be good ideas. Some are just attempts at differentiation, to gather attention or market share. Copy the first, not necessarily the second. > >Failing to see this leads to this over-eager "how can we > >change Emacs to make it more popular" [...] > As long as we don't discount familiarity when talking about newcomer > friendliness, I agree. Alternatively, we can just offer bridges. Emacs is flexible enough to play vi, after all :-) Cheers - t --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9hL1gACgkQBcgs9XrR2kYFjgCeMM8wd/zdpgRGIVPj3jMncKd2 a2AAn1U9R+VJ+TVO5KEHCxyiI7ZiHRUH =44tm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0OAP2g/MAC+5xKAE--