From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 18:17:58 +0200 Message-ID: <20200913161758.2xem4mxqnhhotqmq@Ergus> References: <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <87y2lerlhl.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <20200913125332.fnt5sbnrfkgt4qyi@Ergus> <87v9ghson6.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8853"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Juri Linkov , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 18:19:01 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHUiT-0002A1-0c for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 18:19:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50340 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHUiS-00031r-3b for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:19:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56948) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHUhh-0002YH-A3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:18:13 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.135.41]:40665) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHUhe-00037N-8i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:18:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1600013888; bh=uBjGVjXh4EQB1h7x9T8H2imnsT/3G8mFadqV/lv4SSQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=bA88ssejX+TiAVw+VtR7umVTevyncVP1x7BO0POdF20j+yqoYaEQHhwNSjA/3Te1pva6KMD/voW/BY34x7ejDE45n/c5VBN4WhNZNCrJmc/tBuyvsxJj0NrdvRPvy478gxrh99yML8cbtytrcymUjWJI0Us9G+4/OmqibWqknkYaEdD3mNqqme1mvir2HoCRLcC1hapycZq4wasDcDnxk3hqrRdpW/rvHqrYz+6R/JWWlE+HbSMzQ4tbmpy8XnAjRlFe6ExB28dC6zi5Wt6RxT43O18CcfCExLRevMKoFWAiU1jiJX3LHcB7rXD5Sds8mQ29IpO/YXqELA6j3tvdBw== X-YMail-OSG: wTxfKygVM1kG1K7KP.8d.qigviw3M1Gvo_P70mv6.FtVhsSr1M0lQ3B3Xil200T IVKSY0l_0fQImBXDUItbGG.s7cqaGUbHWzs6IVF7ZKGGX2FzL2DXcjCMMBoAuI6L96WMMPr.nkJb DcA3z1BTboHaAFE9xBB3UKwLxbc2X8yFRrk4gjOrXbnvdrHIm50et2o6YSAnXOG9kAmRWCRVAaCS DGcyImGlbWKUT6MfsZwZ5cFKbItf_cHJzC8q1fJGgtaernHa3iDjNqmbeg89gw4p3GP.bUaRck7F spR2wQt.1dNm5uiEYOR215KqzI4w.yB3Hxr4VwsadM6oQSC4T9YAQ90gAr8EHiCNsuHwPJUapmMp .J_wNmOaqf7agiBollnJHeXfT0MhpteFzR9t_XsSSaOzXO27gogJrfC3tSzvaOyj6SNrfaGySMNP B.XQx9GUY3WXZjqYWgwAMUwN0r8NLV6zNKVrqdwJVuVkM5pCGVyG7uLJs032Zmsc6g0kzj0_gsie 8zR6pxTxOTJs2o_dCxF_arkqHKugsGGYAzPp_I3taX9JweagC4nHJ4afdmIfWrnr_qYUp6iDo6KM X0VBP0PvGvilH0XrmW6rKORoHrtwRRtp1ASbzMT0dOjkc12f8gBPpfeyCPv_EDvHFgK6R9cfynli iBr8u_Tb_LnUKjPufAv2aV_JwnDfeV3mysf9eP.iim5CIYP1gtC8PO2ujsEqHGbBdLkyZvWku9bJ fZCBXJgrmvC3kFXeAb2P7DHlMwO8GtM_YJXeaZYWaf781QX7DXcRO2craetfDMbuN56dxtziTZjG oMMy6AY9iiBZ4_90Qz88HGEuwAj_SFrBjS7Vn_sjiM Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic302.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 16:18:08 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp401.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f66bb038a02c6442fe428d53f326859b; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 16:18:03 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87v9ghson6.fsf@gkayaalp.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.135.41; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic302-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/13 12:18:09 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255516 Archived-At: On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 06:05:33PM +0300, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote: >On 2020-09-13 15:53 +03, Ergus wrote: >> Why the vanilla emacs users almost hasn't increased or has decreases if >> the number of programmers has exponentially grow in the world? And >> being emacs so powerful and old; how is it possible that it is >> frequently not even listed in the GNU/Linux popular editors articles or >> it is back in the list? The emacs popularity is so low these days (even >> in GNU/Linux users) that some distros still comes with emacs 24. And if >> we split spacemacs and doom apart it is almost negligible... we are even >> after vim. > >Those distros are part of the Emacs community. And IMHO a very good >part. With them, a very diverse set of users find ways to make use of >Emacs. > Agree. But many times they need to reinvent the wheel and duplicate efforts to add things unavailable and claimed in vanilla (there are many examples of unneeded duplication in melpa with almost no differences between them.) >> How the emacs modifications (specially spacemacs) have found a set of >> frequent developers, and a big younger community? (which is not bigger >> because it is a bit overloaded of external packages IMO) > >Because they are producing great software that helps people in ways >Emacs core may not. > Sometimes maybe, but in general... Why emacs may not? >> How is it possible that all those dummy and young editors have multiple >> times more users and community than Emacs when they don't really bring >> anything much better than us? > >That’s insulting to the users and developers of those editors, which >are, again, great software. > Sorry, I should have added: compared to emacs ;p >> I think that when emacs was created it was a revolutionary thing; it >> brought an "easier" way to do "complex" things in that time's standard >> and broke many paradigms. Why now we constantly insist in "paradigm of >> computing" and "historic reasons" or "because in the 90's ..."? I am a >> big supporter of backward compatibility, but sometimes the problem >> becomes "evolve or die". > >You’re over-dramatising it. Emacs was a nice idea that built upon the >paradigm of software it was created in. Lisp machines, screen editors >becoming a thing after the introduction of cursor adressable screens. > >And there’s definitely ways to evolve compatibly. Linux doesn’t die >because not everyone uses Yggdrasil anymore. > The difference is that vanilla is not a kernel not a "distro" but both. The number of kernel developers is relatively big and the number of GNU/Linux distros is huge, so they come and go without affecting the kernel at all. There are also some companies implied to support the kernel in different ways and of course the sort of "monopoly" the kernel has in some fields like HPC and IOT. While in our case emacs vanilla IS the distro, with many alternatives around and a small set of developers doing their best. So in case of a comparison, maybe openBSD is a more realistic parallelism... and to compare with a distro you should look at spacemacs or equivalents. If a distro disappears there are others coming, but if the kernel disappears (or die) then also the distros will. >> Every software has a complex social part; and part of that is to satisfy >> general user's needs (because not all the users must be programmers and >> even not all programmers have to be lisp programmers or understand the >> emacs internals). > >That’s a false tautology. Not every piece of software needs to satisfy >every type of users’ needs. In fact, software that tries to do that, >dies. > > I agree there, but not every piece of code is emacs. Otherwise we won't have a music player, eww, mail client, terminal and gui interface, dired and so on. We can't expect to do the same than a specialized program (unless we try). But text editing es something that almost everyone does so almost everyone needs a text editor. > >-- >İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / >pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427 >