From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:23:00 +0200 Message-ID: <20200911132300.6xhbdonq2yeamlee@Ergus> References: <87mu1xrjqw.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <1d991f36-1cc7-d801-6cfb-bfd5541efc77@yandex.ru> <515af795-9cb7-b92f-340c-d3a80645684e@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37060"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Arthur Miller , Gregory Heytings , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 11 15:23:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kGj1k-0009T8-AG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 15:23:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55892 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGj1j-000188-Cp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:23:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48954) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGj1E-0000Yw-At for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:23:12 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.123]:45463) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kGj1B-0008UV-Kg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 09:23:11 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599830587; bh=H8yypqn4gHTTGeULWXSdsQZCkACaA0pXFQMltdTC75w=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=KYzXF+6wtWwhXnSf6FaiHT6tLFXFVHmHGEEtEeoxCaoQgfGzHsd0LCmfHamUXcnK8SvP0mmYYRXlOumhLEKmgMnY5Uxhn3lfa4DMRm4MZbzIppEpEFMoR9YIXNjysxb3Tuq93UrW9BXcNAXsOG5lRX8EM2XSyW6qsCu5pJaCd4t9yT1Qy4KkX2Lka2GQuw2zKf9niYa/SG078Zke3yFCOR/+4OSb8oQfz02xeA3QW2wl01S4irpnX2DFBN/xVpOj9fAGAftSo8YNU34Yx6wa+NYHT0muxDJhUEfp8mDj50lZ2vB+9Uzn/bKnWhSULbgHuz29p8anGbUqHtYaw4Qp/w== X-YMail-OSG: GHYkx8kVM1lE3IVbt2BPsP2G9Atqqkxg.xBQVBLER28jbTUrWGSVCs5JctvRi12 FLXg_CSDJRdu6nG7U4x8d7ccuhuS6ZcWC0ZOdcLsQe..xSk_XoABHP35w7trg7y5.bUi2aPgnW7x WpoL5_wYFdNY9OXtU0lio1PhxG8V28jIS7A1nK5Jv_pF5iZdXXeOBneYRjr88vh4jNgE1vy3pKlp AbEza20c13gedbo49u14LDG7IXyJGyKhr31ywAkE4Jny0Np.EfsXFBVxp0ZeylDcnGxkrPYn7raw utQiCie96TRDEzHko6aqpiF93H7mAIGlAJFGYmsi5gQOvHEO74lGrpaOEtRnSNjyJ_h8AQts9UAg W6gwsZ49XY2mFB5OP7n_6iyNh2aw3yK8_Lsf9M3vTouZFvzWk.U64N6J4eXXO63UrddnBumQNRRV 8vjjw8XBlhwFXksudsYpvkJNL9LnqEZFLw3gkCm.ogQaeZ5xtQPdxXTu0O8NTM0SbRS2qQT_PFMw mISl6P5oOIYJRaofPDgCeNtInq.xntSd73FqwWHmFwwIklyvJjxx8culwUQEDLON1OJC6EeNEl2b KKGAx0LVjE17Ln4HMD8sN.4g3EmbLKDxvBWcLnI8UIEVzhfajnWALp6JNMLgkZoVJ1NoN2IK1exe pqtxaOXroJsVfEuxkVk1Egj3qjSqdDYq7cNlJh60r1Qs2OyCDymppA77tDSvwy30TEIgIuGVTdE. lTJ7ltW8989pdQNmJ.YVjdm1O8H3UteTw2PLogaree89fSpv6n4O0pE76bYu_9_.0n.gyO_faNqt ATzpFpcnUqOIRjl6WMItavEHgid3EbSxZrmgjwIWDk Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:23:07 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp416.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 30e111742ba5fe23cb0ea89af92cf678; Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:23:04 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <515af795-9cb7-b92f-340c-d3a80645684e@yandex.ru> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/11 09:23:07 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255167 Archived-At: On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 03:50:24PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote: >On 11.09.2020 14:00, Arthur Miller wrote: >>Dmitry Gutov writes: >> >>>On 11.09.2020 00:21, Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions. wrote: >>>>I'm not a maintainer, but FWIW my opinion is that what will most likely happen >>>>is that they will never agree to do this.� Menus are not "modern". >>> >>>That's certainly the current trend in Emacs customizations, but it's not a >>>universal rule. >>> >>>VS Code has a traditional menu. Atom has a menu. Visual Studio and IntelliJ IDEA >>>of course have them too. >>When I used to make money by programming VBA with MS Office and C++ with >>VStudio I used to turn off all toolbars and menus I could. Back then >>computer screens where much smaller then today, and even today I still >>fight for vertical screen estate on my computer. > >I do too. But menus should be helpful for newcomers (and when they are >not, we should improve them). So having "starter kits" disable the >menus right away seems counter-productive. > >BTW, the Unity DE and Sublime Text editor included an alternative UI >for menus, where you hit a key (Alt, in the case of Unity) and then >fuzzy match on command description. > Just a question as I don't use sublime anymore. Do you mean something like "autohiding" the toolbar or part of it? >>For that reason, on my home computer I run a WM without decorations, Emacs >>without any gui elements more then main gui window, Firefox & Gimp with >>menus and gui hidden etc. I have never used IntellliJ software, but I >>guess they will give you option to maximize the working area by >>disabling the gui items too. >> >>Anyway, I don't think GUI should be disabled by default; that should be left to >>the user. I am really curious which distro you run :-)? > >I use Ubuntu with GNOME and the Unite extension which emulates Unity >to the best extent possible. That means removing application title >bars when the app is maximized, moving their contents (such as menus) >to the top panel when possible. > >So it's the kind of changes as you did, but to a smaller extent. > The toolbar is less useful if the right click offers the expected options in a panel (copy, paste, cut, select all, upcase, highlight all like this, show error at point). That's why many applications have removed or hided the toolbar; because a right click is usually faster than moving the mouse to the top of the screen. (they also use the key to show the right click panel from keyboard but we use it for execute-extended-command) Sadly we have bind to mouse-save-then-kill which I don't find useful at all, but maybe somebody will complain if we change it to C- and move the panel to . Also our right click panel does not offer those options so it is not as useful now. Actually there is an external package for that: https://github.com/zonuexe/right-click-context So the implementation seems to be pretty simple if we agree in this. WDYT?