From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Opaque objects and Emacs documentation Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:13:46 +0200 Message-ID: <20200717081346.GA31885@tuxteam.de> References: <20200712184908.13140.5739@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20200712184909.BBC61209B1@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <7bf4d6ef-c0ec-43dc-ad5d-f6e81422ad90@yandex.ru> <83zh84m5ws.fsf@gnu.org> <3dd1c224-69b2-40af-5b2e-43a310253632@yandex.ru> <83tuybmtxs.fsf@gnu.org> <859f594b-1343-6d26-e1ac-7157c44eb56c@yandex.ru> <83a6zyk4tt.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UugvWAfsgieZRqgk" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7844"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 17 10:14:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jwLVl-0001x7-2G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:14:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36612 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwLVk-0001If-47 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:14:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60032) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwLVF-0000rq-PT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:13:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:38060) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwLVD-00076f-Cr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 04:13:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=l86qT2K3Gbi03wKs8W4JH+BwCueUTS1NwsXZ1Gsvim0=; b=bAWHnpyKpPpOeQuHEw/vYkYY8J08Huch3TEEtPHgPrmOxk5qdzOCsga5hA81xBVJ8AEscyW6ZB493DDLb9VYkp/FO+LAvSns/xIgB2M6V3ELyr07pHc4UNLVmRJK5UWsc7U6Zasq8sYMx8n4DepGx6VAm6uMzdgYnduTFFFjg6uTP82CO86xu4RIl2uEpSll41jw2CX7h15Bgwxn4yPo2SERYPmqzR/V1xD5wTar3hKaC1FKpkZyLYtlQrAXYh/ucx68hCGeQO7yL5mrkVp/OCKSfNNB9kM0D/DBstXkqVegWgDwbX8im94mpcpk+JDWXmUesyZt77fa/ofblQeQsg==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jwLV4-0008RE-GR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 10:13:46 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83a6zyk4tt.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/17 04:13:46 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253003 Archived-At: --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 09:56:14AM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: [...] > > Or at least that the possible options will require the client to treat= =20 > > the values as "opaque" exactly the same way. >=20 > Basically, you are saying that in your opinion this is as it should > be, and cannot be helped. I already weighted in, but in case that wasn't clear: while I think that "layering" and "abstraction" is a useful structuring technique when building up complex systems, the interfaces themselves have to be subject to negotiation, as everything else. This conflict is bound to happen time and again, because we software folks tend to believe in (pick any) The True OO Way (TM), The True Functional Way (also TM) or whatever. At the end, it's the whole project what counts, and that's why a calm and patient project leader is important. I think you're doing a pretty awesome job, Eli. And Dmitry -- as much respect as I have for your technical skills, I think you're pushing it a bit too hard. But that's just my opinion, and I'm known for having been wrong. In any case, please, both of you: don't take all of that personally. Cheers -- t --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl8RXboACgkQBcgs9XrR2kad9ACfQfNGMn2Sddacr0SkvSkCReG3 ZJQAnj1O6Lh4GOd7jwKdlfDAq2y4KoFX =HNLx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UugvWAfsgieZRqgk--