From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:52:01 +0000 Message-ID: <20200429175201.GC4002@ACM> References: <87zhaxi70f.fsf@yahoo.com> <4D145B75-0C23-4371-A388-747BB9E42327@traduction-libre.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="17509"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Howard Melman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 29 19:54:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jTqus-0004S6-DB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:54:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34572 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTqur-0000qj-Co for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:54:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58970) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTqtM-0007yJ-Bs for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:53:46 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTqsP-0001OV-Lw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:53:04 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:57080 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jTqsP-0001Ny-0E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 13:52:05 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 84057 invoked by uid 3782); 29 Apr 2020 17:52:02 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FE15DE7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.93.231]) by localhost.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 29 Apr 2020 19:52:01 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 10495 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Apr 2020 17:52:01 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/29 13:27:40 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = FreeBSD 9.x or newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248172 Archived-At: Hellow, Howard. On Tue, Apr 28, 2020 at 23:27:39 -0400, Howard Melman wrote: > Jean-Christophe Helary > writes: > >> On Apr 27, 2020, at 23:36, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> So, from what I gather here, we could satisfy everyone by using for the > >> file format a very small subset of org-mode (basically the subset > >> that is common with outline-mode), and for the major-mode itself > >> a variant of org-mode that loads faster (e.g. a stripped down version > >> of org-mode, or an org-mode that's been profiled&tweaked to load > >> faster). > > My reading is that org-mode users would just appreciate if > > outline-mode had "non-nonsense" navigation similar to org-mode. > FWIW, I've had this in my init for several years now. I'm > not an org-mode user, though I've tried a few times. I can > never remember the outline-mode keybindings and found that > org-mode's C-TAB and S-TAB alone were huge wins and just > worked in outline-minor-mode. This my solution to code > folding and I use it in other modes like markdown. Adding > org-cycle and org-global-cycle to outline mode, or some > equivalent I think would be a huge usability win. > ;; I can never remember the outline keybindings, > ;; grabbing C-tab and S-Tab from org-mode is genius > ;; Also make the outline move commands memorable (borrowing from org) > (with-eval-after-load "outline" > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "C-") 'org-cycle) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "S-") 'org-global-cycle) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-demote) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-promote) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-move-subtree-up) > (define-key outline-minor-mode-map (kbd "M-") 'outline-move-subtree-down) > ) I disagree that these bindings are suitable for general use. For a start, most of them only exist in GUI frames, not TTYs. M-, etc. certainly don't (unless the keyboard has been specially enhanced, as mine has). Also, all these keys are "repeatable", i.e. you can let them run on auto-repeat. Such keys are scarce and valuable, and shouldn't be "squandered" on commands that don't need them. I suggest that the likes of outline-demote don't need such bindings. Also[2], the arrow keys, with modifiers, are highly likely to be in use by many users for things connected with movement, and defining them like this in outline-mode will inconvenience all of them. For example, I've got M- and M- bound to commands to scroll the other window a single line. I don't want to lose these, even in outline-mode. > -- > Howard -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).