From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:23:11 +0000 Message-ID: <20200427102311.GA4976@ACM> References: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="76667"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , Emacs developers To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=E9vin?= Le Gouguec Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 27 12:24:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jT0vv-000JoV-9o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:24:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37270 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT0vu-0008PO-BC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:24:14 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42814) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT0uy-0007dv-Pb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:23:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT0ux-0004Mi-PV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:23:16 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:15720 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jT0ux-0004MR-4C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 06:23:15 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 34248 invoked by uid 3782); 27 Apr 2020 10:23:12 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FE15D7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.93.126]) by localhost.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:23:11 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 5015 invoked by uid 1000); 27 Apr 2020 10:23:11 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y2qhnc9a.fsf@gmail.com> X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/27 06:23:13 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = FreeBSD 9.x or newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247900 Archived-At: Hello, Kévin. On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 23:54:57 +0200, Kévin Le Gouguec wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > org-mode is a sledgehammer and the six outline-mode files are mere nuts. > > The org-mode source files are 100 times as big as outline.el. > > You do not have to "know" outline-mode to use it. I certainly don't. > > It is merely text-mode adorned with a few non-essential commands for > > navigating via the outlines. Anybody who can use Emacs at all can use > > outline-mode. > > By contrast, org-mode is a monster. The learning time for org-mode must > > be non-trivial. > OTOH, > - I don't think I will ever manage to remember any of the keybindings > for the outline-(show|hide)-… functions, which means I will never be > able to use the "selective display" feature advertised in > outline-mode's docstring without a cheatsheet. Neither can I. When I need it, which is rarely, there's C-h m. > - With org-mode, I can simply TAB my way through a document without > figuring out whether what I want to show/hide are entries, subtrees, > children, branches, leaves, sublevels, bodies… But you can't use TAB to indent a line, or alternatively to insert a tab character. And how is a non-specialist user reading NEWS for a new release going to find out about this TAB binding? > So, while I agree that org-mode is a sledgehammer for e.g. idly browsing > NEWS, from a user's point-of-view (at least this user) and to borrow > your terms, outline-mode "is a monster" with countless esoteric > keybindings; There are not "countless" keybindings in outline-mode; there are just 26 defined commands, only some of which will have bindings. By contrast, in org-mode there are 798 defined commands. That's a factor of 30 greater. > meanwhile, I definitely don't "have to know" org-mode to use it; I > just mindlessly hit TAB on the thing I want to show/hide. That may be true up until somebody decides to insert some obscure org-mode construct into NEWS. With over 4 magabytes of source code implementing it, there will be more than a few such constructs. > As I said in the bug report, to me this looks like a good opportunity to > provide a friendlier section-cycling command for outline-mode; it > boggles my mind that outline-toggle-children isn't bound by default. Maybe it should be. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).