From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:47:18 +0100 Message-ID: <20191107004718.pxb3m7hzecbxz7uu@Ergus> References: <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s.ref@Ergus> <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s@Ergus> <877e4c1x3r.fsf@gmail.com> <20191106232153.bb756hrf4ctwegkp@Ergus> <87ftj0eeum.fsf@telefonica.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="69005"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?w5NzY2Fy?= Fuentes Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 07 01:47:50 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVxl-000HpJ-DR for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 01:47:49 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38098 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVxk-0003nG-4Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:47:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58106) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVxb-0003gW-Kj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:47:40 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVxa-00039g-E1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:47:39 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic313-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.185.32]:39990) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSVxa-00038x-8Z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 19:47:38 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1573087655; bh=lAV9TpyMVH2dwMZOFqGFeXKwdX2pPmPCCpg5trCdTDs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=LdAST90DIILUOJby08378HA8ouWV4I1IRl+4W8YhFT0s/PslrqtQVWQ+zGrINo8Z3PWidiQvUHqzlYIsJXrEwIunzVIfdA3ciIGsvPrsv8bigLcEWQluqMgEhXb+EJKHNimvKbwTGw8Q2gN9UGMfHh2N7Aab30JWYAQEDhAHOYXVmn0s+zwrw4t5si43q08fzyeZGm7cQc08FJ8+Y4rZJ0rVKyMPty8ILANIqOWuij+RKG2Dy3psKxfSkF0MTJOpT48V9GhfG52M9tEdUMy1DaBIGNZwnAXnp2egtAduoGzQSvy8aeOt1/TDd4FtslhyQbEwWRMGMrButAVuuXF8eQ== X-YMail-OSG: xwlh9F8VM1l.B6F5kQuGQl.e8y.6Xhq9GRb3_P9QMemzQPwBW9S8uyn2drnADzV ym7csEcpMa2wPuGbjq5QwhtxN6B2V6eoRJvhB4Jv26LdiWd0ezwupEPCaR3in2EHhgHyib1vilLe mvCuDXF2PQzXA_okszyOlGRBXNp2gIeBqrPspZlCka_q3Rnum5.B8ga_K9KZdX0UKxKkvE6NQfka vEqau25I2fGdp113eWV5fICkotr3QBYCGPQzdlatwDzXPguWPIuzFiQoxKG.yClHSG877F9T9aq3 Ejn.2U5oYNv_VZpDD3ukc1rulhI.ahRUpknZq1_3iNOANCsVhSffaN0SYn08E6H4xH6zam2WbI8A zJK9qeD32GsWI1QpnritVxrVDWfnIfi5vb443LmskS_o2utBbravuUaH78Q8YhbjwitvZboaZ0lp pQ_OoxYkIAViuC4cUC7U0mfvFdfgkMmCzHA5t.BquBX7_6QHOWJ.slP.vEkr2TT.9wDO4FLGowAO 9vw_8dF98R2KkdNUhdr80iA5VEpm.tdsxhvf.mRF_9x_u5WTbdNQf9TmSgoEcIzwosoZGj8Cfkxx lEeeKYWyBBde977tkY0g0QhGP6OzJGpCGWpakLXlomnYj0c0vn_rUIQwJFxeO.veRGItDIQpITg. wuh8PO15_KdX8M31RyDedQYaIS2RgkE2HTQ7gzWhAvphUNeiT9dxwbhQXc2n5wkUU63X6to.KQy1 .ds1mHas0uQV8Zm9yaiwrGUZy940iKqb1BqAw8DQcL_9eqZ80auQvoxdGO0hoQ2h5jMoNAzscjs4 eD6vrFK_UHcGAwExbLeDr6hibzEftvZVuMJxqmo1Y7 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:47:35 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp420.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 1a11f33ebe05bc07899ccb936a44c0bb; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:47:33 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87ftj0eeum.fsf@telefonica.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14680 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 66.163.185.32 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:241895 Archived-At: On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 12:59:13AM +0100, �scar Fuentes wrote: >Ergus writes: > >> I actually have very strong feelings behind ido in 2019 (I know I am a >> sort of apostate for this). But I think it is something that needs to be >> removed/deprecated/substituted for the good of newer alternatives like >> icomplete. So new users will try more maintained/ modern/ powerful/ >> better integrated alternatives: like icomplete/ivy/helm. > >Ido is not used by default. What good does to remove it? > Who is maintaining ido these days? Who fixes the issues related with ido? Which sense makes to develop and improve all the completion infrastructure and design if the users can't take advantage of it because nobody touches ido? Should we be stocked in 2001 because ido is hard do maintain? >> The intention is to move the users to the newer functionalities so they >> can get the best possible first impression. > >New users are not exposed to ido at all. So I don't get your point. > Reduce confusion, so users don't have to ask like me why are there so many alternatives; a clearer view of what's around, what's being more maintained, what's more functional, where the are investing more effort the developers. >> From the software point of view it is "complex" to keep such a big piece >> of code that nobody wants to touch anymore... specially if we already >> have alternatives for it. > >People are not forced to work on Ido. They do because they want. > By touch I mean maintain, integrate and update with the new features; also fix issues. Recommend ido today will just disappoint users and limit their view of emacs as it is today. New users (that we should also attract) have a very hard learning curve in front of them; we must not make it harder. And ido is not by far the best we have to offer anymore. We don't have either enough man power (and even with that it makes no sense) to maintain 4 packages with exactly the same functionality. >> I think Abo-abo actually tried to modify ido to improve it and he >> finally ended implementing ivy... was easier that way. > >I tried Ivy and decided that it is clearly inferior to my ido config. >YMMV. > This is a personal taste... Many more users are with helm or ivy these days... so "clearly inferior" is a very personal opinion in your case. My suggestion here will be to start using fido-mode and help fixing it until it can completely replace ido in functionality as it is based on icomplete and integrates better with the rest of the infrastructure. In my opinion ido should be deprecated and moved as a separated project in Elpa. And nothing limits icomplete to become more powerful and functional. >Can we stop prentending there is One True Way of doing things? > There are many approximations to The True; but true is always only One True... and nobody knows it. That's why we need to keep searching.