From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 00:21:53 +0100 Message-ID: <20191106232153.bb756hrf4ctwegkp@Ergus> References: <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s.ref@Ergus> <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s@Ergus> <877e4c1x3r.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="269589"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: Drew Adams , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 07 00:23:26 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iSUe3-0017zN-Vp for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:23:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37090 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSUe2-0005Q7-Rv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:23:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45818) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSUcz-0005PF-Nx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:22:19 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSUcy-0002Fa-3k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:22:17 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic315-21.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.190.147]:36175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSUcx-0002DA-LA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:22:16 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1573082534; bh=/ndwT5hzxydSf7M9FCwvc3YTBZ+cEePzmYKMNWmtCEk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=SznL2nhJpKCgtzfBPjD8vZe1uDZvGutEAtGbE+nPJTEzVGMEwZP68FAb1GnSlCK20Lw2C3Ull2WgrB8rjR6qfsm3DTieXHDoEMnjxnTXvKLIPuSZUyd/b8onVrdQSJhm6MwiBsgSdMBcqS7KqWA6n2nZ+BKWDWtl95l1MZfk7m79bjL1kRMrwii8KVIegK6eVqWq3/NhuPkF1+ZIDz4mtqfiNjoA19MoijHAHIzeQ0FQheW+DBXyRDXmRl6qNi99P/jBnzussleKsbb5nkS6CZubPnK3KHvyG5/s5ixuaOQaN3q9cwZrULgl55WO9sJn5vg7CX78FosmTBmZoScZUg== X-YMail-OSG: NCs2BbYVM1kE7XB0tSCkD6dHrznPOMWWpMXPCyBOxVvOaJq7KUK.0M8QXyxGmp0 h4MNqDYiu2DPhhs5NizmQs3u1MqfPjqlIAZbvhsV42QeUxNGAcOHBCMn4m6BnaWlRDPV3zgY84zh bKz7miu9qf8ckRVhysTy0I1vNUoXhSRG1a84GrGFsR6FjM5IKA5fDymuqI7gHsW9I9qsU8.47nBV eayTGUQECOxAut_6.Z9LdlQxCoXZZPKJgts4.sBS.7sc9ynBbMP7mYtqgbHHyOjY6WtTIWDwjpNV 9AaywTMbB5btLWOnbQqJEZylYwgq9asmaA3Yw.0cTvIA8MsRqW54EIQiibzGyXwVAa4hPqByQqzL .imNQY5R3TyVkJE5MnutoEZXaFybu5WB35V1JssTHcDic4djlajoohCnlb.cXa089iGaXhZmfaoo LBilSIpCTMfq6F7HWzq5Mg1Rep1wvjnWsUe500jKdaUBvn81Ie9NT7ftIDZlR8i1_wMMrrT4Mdi4 IRoa.fuuGhWXC4U2RzmXaF_bgxkXVSkX3Ft3JTO3Pldt8pIYZMmEJeEvQVuOpgJaekq96fxMT_L0 1awoA14neW6GdU7m4qBZ93mpj7D1rBLBbck0NK6UJm49OYjrshX_Ky9smKm1aKFAB6LLPrdCS8jd 2aoK97tzZvQfunX8bGAIu7bt1aoxI04Qk0.XecywCkbIl6MXrcyY8HH3KDou2FmrmU33aZt0PiPm FrhMTWRF9WkFr3qVctwYHvS1jCJRX37ObzNxyVcAec9GjESNwnm7RZSVtiLJmnuHs20GgjWxpDPf 9feJ7vVhemD8qPWwY8KAYh3yc7RJxTfspmdtD_3q_3 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic315.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 23:22:14 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp425.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8009d7696ea4dcc46b9a624120021853; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:22:08 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <877e4c1x3r.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14680 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 66.163.190.147 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:241891 Archived-At: Hi Joao: Thanks for the answer it is very clarifying for me now. Maybe you should add all this information somewhere in the documentation. On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 10:03:20PM +0000, Jo�o T�vora wrote: >Ergus writes: > >> 1) Do we really need another confusing mode (fido-mode)? instead of >> improve one of the already existing alternatives with just an option to >> use flex? > >I'm sorry you find the name confusing. I find it appealing (it's "fake >ido"), but we can change it (Stefan proposed icomplete-ido-mode). > The name is not important for me actually :p if it is documented properly and in a logical place in the manual with links (or in the same place) of the ido section and icomplete... so easily to find. >Now, I wish I could just put 'flex' (and many other things) in ido-mode. >Actually the matter is much more complicated. Ido mode is a completely >separate completion system that doesn't respect Emacs completion >interfaces (completion-in-region-functions, >completion-at-point-functions, completion-styles, etc etc etc ). This >means it doesn't work nicely for M-x, C-h f, and many many other >completion situations. So, believe me, I tried to change it... and gave >up immediately (but go ahead, open lisp/ido.el hehehe). > I actually have very strong feelings behind ido in 2019 (I know I am a sort of apostate for this). But I think it is something that needs to be removed/deprecated/substituted for the good of newer alternatives like icomplete. So new users will try more maintained/ modern/ powerful/ better integrated alternatives: like icomplete/ivy/helm. The intention is to move the users to the newer functionalities so they can get the best possible first impression. From the software point of view it is "complex" to keep such a big piece of code that nobody wants to touch anymore... specially if we already have alternatives for it. I think Abo-abo actually tried to modify ido to improve it and he finally ended implementing ivy... was easier that way. >Recently, we worked together with the Helm developer to help Helm to >abide by a greater number of Emacs completion interfaces. It should >have, among other benefits, the interesting result that you can use Helm >matching styles in icomplete.el's frontend. Or company's. Or Emacs's >flex in Helm. I will pray you to do the same for ivy... please please... Actually I think ivy is now much better integrated than helm before, but for sure there will be things missing you could help to improve. >So I don't think it's true there's no cooperation. > Sorry, maybe I explained wrong... I know there is some cooperation (actually some contributors here are active contributors of ivy for example). I just think it is not enough. The argument is actually that spacemacs is so big just because they need to hack or re-implement many functionalities that sometimes we can provide with an extra parameter in vanilla emacs. >Maybe you can convince someone to do that for ido.el, idk. > Again, I am not an ido fan... I would try to convince someone to do the same for avy-counsel actually. >I was a heavy Ido addict for many years because it has the best >interface, hands down, much better than Ivy, or Helm, IMO of course. I >also know many people in my company that swear by it. But the >implementation was impossibly hard to hack on. Then I found >icomplete.el, with very lean implementation (around 8x less lines) and >the closest gap to ido-mode. I improved a decent part of icomplete.el, >so Icomplete mode is now better by itself. But that gap to ido-mode is >still annoyingly (and legitimately) there, and we can't just change >icomplete-mode's defaults like that. > I have never used icomplete... so I don't know what ido provides that icomplete can't. So where is the gap? Is a part of the gap fixed in helm or ivy for example? >So fido-mode. It's really just icomplete with slightly different >defaults that emulate ido mode as close as possible. Indeed the >specific contract of fido-mode is to emulate ido-mode as much as >possible, to use it as a reference, so if you find something in the >emulation that can be improved, please share. > Maybe this paragraph should go in the manual in the ido section suggesting to switch to fido in order to improve fido as much as possible and deprecate the actual ido implementation in the future... (I have a dream, please don't burn me for this "A man can dream... a man can dream") >Regarding your other points, that's just the way Emacs is. I >like lean implementations that play along with the rest of Emacs, so I >chose icomplete.el to use and to hack on. > Me too, now I get why we need fido... It should say explicitly in the documentation that "Fido is a modern icomplete emulating ido with better integration with all the emacs infrastructure" etc etc etc... and it. >Jo�o > > Best, Ergus