From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Change terminology to =?utf-8?Q?better?= =?utf-8?B?IGFsaWduIHVzZXJz4oCZ?= experience with modern GUIs Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:37:21 +0200 Message-ID: <20190723093721.GA29541@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <58E90D68-5CE4-425F-BB5F-07533665ADC0@icloud.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="162478"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 23 11:38:04 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hprFC-000g6V-UC for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:38:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40628 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hprFB-0003bj-PX for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:38:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48707) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hprF7-0003b8-F2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hprF6-0001mM-5Q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:57 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:44333) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hprF5-0001UI-UM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 05:37:56 -0400 Original-Received: from protected.rcdrun.com (localhost [::1]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 02:37:22 -0700 id 000000000002034B.000000005D36D552.000019CE Original-Received: from localhost (protected.rcdrun.com [local]) by protected.rcdrun.com (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPA id d67d8782; Tue, 23 Jul 2019 09:37:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <58E90D68-5CE4-425F-BB5F-07533665ADC0@icloud.com> X-Mime-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by courier 0.76.3 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 217.170.207.13 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:121232 Archived-At: * =EC=A1=B0=EC=84=B1=EB=B9=88 [2019-07-23 08:47]: > Is there any intent or interest in updating the terminology of Emacs do= cumentation/function names to better align users=E2=80=99 experience with = modern GUIs?=20 >=20 > For example, `window' and `buffer' in emacs is more meaningful when > explained as `pane' or `document'. One word may have different definitions, right? The Emacs manual explains the definitions. I understand your viewpoint, you learned some other definitions for same words and now you face little confusion. But imagine how many people are there, so many of them would come from random environments and would be faced with new definitions, so it would not be feasible to change definitions to satisfy each particular wish, but I know that changes and modifications are made by Emacs developers whenever it benefits the majority. In Emacs `buffer' is not necessarily connected to any file document. Do you know? > Especially the term `window' is a frequent source of confusion to > Emacs newcomers which confuse them to `frame'. Me not sure about that. I did not have confusion since 1999, since I started using Emacs and stopped using that other system. But I did take my time to read the books and manuals, and there were too many new definitions of commands and terminology in the GNU/Linux system. So facing the new terminology ALWAYS take place when learning some new subject. I hope that you can generally understand the situation. It applies in every subject, not only computing. When a new student in mining university learns definition of a "sample", he cannot just try to adapt it to his previous understanding of it, but he shall rather learn the new definition and apply it properly in the context how and where it is used. The word `sample' may be small part of something inteded as representative of the whole (reference Wordnet). It could be a bite of watermelon before its purchase. But in mining, the word sample has quite different definition such as "collection of fragments or pieces from a deposit which contains exactly the same minerals in exactly the same proportions as they exist in the deposit". While it would be easier for student to simply go on with those known definitions, it would create disaster in the subject of mining if his definition of the word `sample' would be used. That is why developers are pretty careful and try to find consensus when making such modification. > IMO in my ideal world, there should be no division between `window' and = `buffer', the difference should be abstracted away so that users don=E2=80= =99t have to know the `window' notion at all. > However that currently isn=E2=80=99t the case, there are multiple occur= rences (and a dedicated chapter) in the Emacs manual about `window' and `= buffer'. >=20 > Changing the `window' term to `pane' or something else seems like a low= -hanging fruit for people who would like to try using Emacs; I=E2=80=99m = interested/curious on other people=E2=80=99s opinions about this. I am also not native English speaker. It should be logical from physical world that a window consists of frames and panes eventually. Those definitions are different from Emacs terminology. And I would leave it how it is. Do you know why? Because Emacs is an important part of civilization and development of many other apparently not related pieces of software. It brings to easier understanding of its history. I have here a document AI Memo 554, from October 22nd 1981, EMACS Manual for ITS Users. Now I am not sure if they had any graphical environment at that time. That company that sells operating system Windows maybe started in the same year some plans for it, but nothing was released until 1985. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Windows#Early_versions And in the EMACS Manual for ITS Users the words "windows" are mentioned. What if they did not use graphical system? Then it was a console or terminal based application. Monitor would not be considered a window so that screen tilings become pane. I think that logic of "window" comes from the console or terminal based operation. And Emacs is widely used through terminal modes, so changing terminology would break the logic for those users. Jean