From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Robert Alessi Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200 Message-ID: <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> References: <87zhlbaf5d.fsf@kiddo.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me> <20190718173252.GA3093@robertalessi.net> <20190718184700.GA4886@robertalessi.net> <20190718203203.GG4886@robertalessi.net> <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="98531"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 19 11:00:30 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOkf-000PRs-Rd for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:00:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOke-0006qx-Fd for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:00:28 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59734) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOkX-0006Vg-Bz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:00:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOkP-0003fm-HE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:00:21 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:46285) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOjG-0002zx-H8 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 05:00:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOjG-0005pf-ER for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:59:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Robert Alessi Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:59:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 36717 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 36717-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B36717.156352671222380 (code B ref 36717); Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:59:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 36717) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jul 2019 08:58:32 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55106 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOil-0005os-Hn for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:58:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:53816) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoOij-0005ok-44 for 36717@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 04:58:30 -0400 Original-Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 388B81A29FE; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Riseup-User-ID: CA94C61AF70F33B71D34D4A6C13D6BEE899CDEF73469B7F6481B34F9E8771284 Original-Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C6BAF22312A; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 01:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:163374 Archived-At: Hi Eli, On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 09:57:38AM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the > > > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so > > > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict > > > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing > > > classical greek). > > > > Good point. I will try to look for such an edict! > > We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts > there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a > comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are > trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the > questions. As of this writing, I am doing some research on this topic. At least, I went through almost all the documents that are listed here: https://unicode.org/versions/ (in reverse chronological order), and couldn't find any statement of Greek oxia being deprecated in favor of tonos, contrary to what is claimed here: https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels Strictly speaking, tonos is not to be mistaken for oxia: that is for sure, as tonos was introduced as a result of a reform to denote a tone, namely a stress on some vowels, and not a pitch, namely a rising and falling voice on accented vowels. Confusion began in 1986 (from what I learned) when the Greek government decreed that tonos shall be the acute. In addition to this, Unicode initially served both Greek and Coptic on the same block, starting at U+0370. At this time, only monotonic Greek was served. Later, an additional block called Greek Extended was added at U+1F00, let alone further additions being encoded in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane... >From what I could see, many Greek fonts originally reflected the distinction between tonos and oxia. But nowadays, they simply mix them up. This is precisely why I was not able to instruct FontForge to take into account vowels with oxia in some of the substitution rules of Old Standard which is a very fine Greek font (see https://ctan.org/pkg/oldstandard): vowels with oxia were simply missing from the Greek Extended Block, and what I did not see is a rule that instructed to absorb vowels with oxia into vowels with tonos as the glyphs are all strictly the same. One question remains—and I wish to express my gratitude to all of you, Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary. Many thanks again to all of you! Robert