From: Robert Alessi <alessi@robertalessi.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, 36717@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 10:58:24 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20190719085824.GA3263@robertalessi.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <83tvbiv7dp.fsf@gnu.org>
Hi Eli,
On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 09:57:38AM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > But those methods that have tonos are for 'modern' greek, whereas the
> > > ones that have oxia are for classical greek, as Basil pointed out, so
> > > perhaps thereʼs no need to change anything (unless thereʼs an edict
> > > from the Unicode people that tonos must be used even when writing
> > > classical greek).
> >
> > Good point. I will try to look for such an edict!
>
> We could ask on the Unicode mailing list. There are Unicode experts
> there, and they are quite friendly. If someone can come up with a
> comprehensive description of our situation and the issues we are
> trying to resolve, please write to unicode@unicode.org, and ask the
> questions.
As of this writing, I am doing some research on this topic. At least,
I went through almost all the documents that are listed here:
https://unicode.org/versions/ (in reverse chronological order), and
couldn't find any statement of Greek oxia being deprecated in favor of
tonos, contrary to what is claimed here:
https://wiki.digitalclassicist.org/Greek_Unicode_duplicated_vowels
Strictly speaking, tonos is not to be mistaken for oxia: that is for
sure, as tonos was introduced as a result of a reform to denote a
tone, namely a stress on some vowels, and not a pitch, namely a rising
and falling voice on accented vowels. Confusion began in 1986 (from
what I learned) when the Greek government decreed that tonos shall be
the acute. In addition to this, Unicode initially served both Greek
and Coptic on the same block, starting at U+0370. At this time, only
monotonic Greek was served. Later, an additional block called Greek
Extended was added at U+1F00, let alone further additions being
encoded in the Supplementary Multilingual Plane...
From what I could see, many Greek fonts originally reflected the
distinction between tonos and oxia. But nowadays, they simply mix
them up. This is precisely why I was not able to instruct FontForge
to take into account vowels with oxia in some of the substitution
rules of Old Standard which is a very fine Greek font (see
https://ctan.org/pkg/oldstandard): vowels with oxia were simply
missing from the Greek Extended Block, and what I did not see is a
rule that instructed to absorb vowels with oxia into vowels with tonos
as the glyphs are all strictly the same.
One question remains—and I wish to express my gratitude to all of you,
Robert, Basil and Eli: since assigning vowels with tonos and vowels
with oxia to the same code points is clearly unacceptable even if the
glyphs may be identical, is there a way to input tonos and vowels with
tonos with emacs? I use greek-ibycus4, but if other input methods
can handle these letters, I would consider any change unnecessary.
Many thanks again to all of you!
Robert
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-07-19 8:58 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 50+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-07-18 9:03 bug#36717: 25.3; greek.el: deprecated vowel+oxia combinations should be replaced with vowel+tonos counterparts Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 14:54 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-18 17:32 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 18:06 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-18 18:47 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 18:57 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-18 20:14 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 20:32 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 6:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 8:27 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 9:09 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 12:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 13:27 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 14:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 14:41 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 14:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 14:52 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 15:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 15:14 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 14:45 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 8:58 ` Robert Alessi [this message]
2019-07-19 9:26 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 9:42 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 9:49 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 10:03 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 11:49 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 13:32 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 12:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 13:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 13:31 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 14:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-01-16 13:59 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-07-19 13:29 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-19 13:33 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 12:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 9:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 9:54 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 12:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-07-19 13:47 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 18:19 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-07-18 20:19 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 20:52 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-07-18 18:16 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-07-18 18:47 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-18 20:27 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-18 20:23 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 9:40 ` Robert Pluim
2019-07-18 18:16 ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2019-07-18 20:29 ` Robert Alessi
2019-07-19 12:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
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