From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: [offtopic] Re: Ctrl-[ ? Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 11:44:22 +0200 Message-ID: <20190615094422.GA3890@tuxteam.de> References: <96B116FC-8007-4C42-9AE6-585530D0C76E@comcast.net> <87muisor2h.fsf@telefonica.net> <63F9D100-CD25-445B-8184-93A25DB0FC38@comcast.net> <874l4zoiz6.fsf@telefonica.net> <8A953A06-0B89-4026-8801-602C0D8B2CA1@comcast.net> <20190614122416.GA17606@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="110692"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 15 11:44:50 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5Eu-000SZM-NM for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 11:44:48 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59570 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5Eo-0003Kv-Pw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 05:44:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35098) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5Ef-0003Km-Gx for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 05:44:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5Ed-0002Kq-6S for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 05:44:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:57507) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5Ec-0002EI-MZ for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 05:44:31 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=uGnq0nfEnKwf+Gki90SqP8o/scUrQ3cMFzgMUUcrtP8=; b=W9UITb6vKoAF2karJTt5UkXjGst3XYD3Xh9evUaOOPn5YZIfQ+gQjzc8sAmNruPxIoj0T7XPIgLODvvB06onpAkzMWkb6VEzjVDGdORsw4EWF6ut7Iqpw9w4yLWr6V6nKPVciunoLU6nSGAHmRNLjY6uqQ62+dViRQz5O9MjLPOv9svbYahkRu8HEoOXSujjPPGYxqWgkw/qlAqze6yrHMwAVqids0wXv3kAX31Q7DnCZU3n9mZY/5yde9GJwxrf9Wvp1uQtCX0pq/T43NFumNSsEbS9/cUSiVyZB4tDNgIBtE3kd9Yaj8eJVS8ig1tS1CDsB4hoxRsxwEEvO1wE/w==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1hc5EU-0001BU-6U for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Jun 2019 11:44:22 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 5.199.139.25 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120962 Archived-At: --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 15, 2019 at 07:12:28PM +1000, Van L wrote: > writes: >=20 > > Until you've got a German keyboard layout, where you need yet > > another modifier (AltGr) to reach [, ], \ and |. >=20 > Choose the keys comfy for you relative to thumb over modifier key and > finger tips poised to strike like in a DOOM Eternal Deathmatch. It's more complicated than that: on the one hand, there's a strong incentive for /one/ default set of keybindings (a baseline, so to speak): documentation, tutorials, help forums, etc. (imagine you had to parametrize them with $deity-knows-what-weird-keybinding-set, they'd spread pretty thinly). > > I'm sure there are multitude of other language-specific keyboard > > layouts sharing that weakness... >=20 > Localise the layout. See above. I think, realistically, that a non-standard layout is (except maybe a few exceptions) a difficult balance act. More than it seems at first blush: a key binding set is, after all, like a new language -- you get a "tower of Babel" effect if you multiply that. Now I'm not arguing against using the flexibility Emacs provides here, quite on the contrary. I'm just stating that it doesn't come at zero cost (on the "social" side). > > But I didn't want to open /that/ can o' worms -- just to raise > > a bit of awareness. >=20 > I don't have the luxury of 3 modifier keys right of my spacebar and have > the following experimental layout. The CAPSLOCK 'on' doesn't function > like holding the SHIFT key down for, for example, '(kbd "H-S-l")'. Yeah, I've some little tweaks on my keyboard too (most of them at the X level, because I like my apps to behave consistently). The (useless [1]) CAPSLOCK does compose, so I can write =E2=99=A5 (=3D CAPSLOCK + < + 3) and = other trivia. Double-shift changes my keyboard to Greek input. But when I'm discussing with some other Emacs person across the world what CTRL-/ does (-> undo), the fact that, for me, it's unergonomic (CTR-SHIFT-7) and for her it's just a two-key combo, is perhaps not so important. Or it is. As I said, can of worms. I don't think there's "a solution" to that. It helps being aware of the multitude of factors involved. Cheers [1] See? Some might consider CAPSLOCK INDISPENSABLE. And they'd right too :-) -- t --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl0EvfYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZUMACbBHozN6upn0YUG2r27t3+9JEZ 29kAnj1gNtBVcvMYr3YmPClcVVhvFUzI =5mb1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --bp/iNruPH9dso1Pn--