From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Ctrl-[ ? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:56:50 +0200 Message-ID: <20190612085650.44bquuo54qy3blce@Ergus> References: <83sgsmr5c7.fsf@gnu.org> <83r286r4e6.fsf@gnu.org> <83pnnqr2a0.fsf@gnu.org> <83o93ar082.fsf@gnu.org> <409640b8-20f6-1795-1705-f907dec90dee@gmail.com> <83r285p4d1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="85902"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , =?utf-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Pit-Claudel , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?B?U8O4cmVuIFBpbGfDpXJk?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 12 11:00:39 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1haz7V-000M7f-5G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 11:00:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57706 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1haz7T-0006Ck-H3 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 05:00:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39039) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1haz6V-000693-NL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 04:59:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1haz41-000437-Tf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 04:57:03 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.179.189]:41979) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1haz40-00042Z-W7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 04:57:01 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1560329819; bh=hGHnjumlKwY5yn/sO+O6jXb6+PaLRha50xX2dV9nbcs=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=Bhekma80AkmxUxlc+/AMIjhmw+Uuclt0whFJLxX7QUn1Wx5lBcxCMSgtnXcGNLIa05+RIfLCOu06bjF8Cfxtab+6wt6AhMwo0fwSG6cXGniQbgwThrfLyfD+TiYGyKq9zBZIc3kelvE6T6jjUG+E0qJdcvnTm+P1hwHX29FD/xKvoSOkaF/gezwFfncUdc/CexbNJESV3kH3cBUIjLpkwCLbjWO3JsMjxbo2UrnSmT/loYmVIKJvl1cmaYrCY3QFH/tJr2dQNKgVr0nfTPVQVv0qbtVgNC4IPSLFx9HGgpUXn5rSaIktk6zRsnUqlgCmfhjZ0DYATADkrRP/q7dEEg== X-YMail-OSG: _2plX6kVM1mpnmzeUA6jZY4QIkkY2O9QSRY7JFQVZ.N5YNWgpGR_TslK6qe1bWo nkg8UzlvRJF.L2XYzdZSRqWT7ZLXKOuNgeEOvLQ4piXotAm6sQrZ9FL_D.1OFZfIeunrmGoUCU6M BQ3u9xdhHmBOaIxCbxxlKt1WBG50KgLWqGXsSw8jFfYWcV_vmet.5Mq_4tgQdrV68F5Ueu6e4JfD 98CIJGkSEIiLqDJ4sib6VfHD7SMm5W.HyA9M8BfC8LhzjQgtDkXyKl9TvZAfr1qk_yUnEk4PsGCs k1rIp6k3BaV63P9gkD3CqjOLo4EltLyZHdAXU6rsp_CzfKLWVuaoQ8D.rYhR_d7K0b7CElA85k6q UyUh0GucRYnktemgaOJhL90sHgd1dFWRbDFeGHiWMAF8AUHhRTdsONshxdUcZLpf2dI842cBevru dy5USOOuBi88KdldB6O2kT6KgglyZN3.aInU994a.XeBIxskd6DxIDrhbPmMopT6cXbsQL71Wmna dub35Z7Dg.Np.Zr5ev1YY5asxNEx.h35piY.Sqe.pW5RRQlKY_zfoTQcJmfpr22_KXOQsgJbHT34 ZCsKi8pHio71k3FOPLOrMrFh_Nmgtp.Oi2PxvlbGLAk_dQZRmdR7YkAOtnxZnlorn9hHYORyw6gj Vzx.eB1FC56k3JaC0vfOVmFON1ZiqPSl_UHnzg1qQRr9fQznA5Ntx4L8AEy9rcRAAZJzpJrz.c4K ehUQqBQ_g8yMcsLap5BeOu5c09dKVgf7tqqVtakfLeXkb_Li1bfCMTtoLRaFedK0JXfJiQJCvuMi 3adGHLz_hWU4RxmFJE2z4C3eQMKqhb3pizsm0JEyDE Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:56:59 +0000 Original-Received: from 84.88.50.33 (EHLO Ergus) ([84.88.50.33]) by smtp426.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f183ae45216158053eb5e1488d3bb863; Wed, 12 Jun 2019 08:56:57 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.179.189 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:237450 Archived-At: On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 10:08:44AM +0200, S??ren Pilg??rd wrote: >On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 9:51 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> > From: Cl??ment Pit-Claudel >> > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 11:02:12 -0400 >> > >> > >> (global-set-key (kbd "ESC") #'forward-char) >> > >> >> > >> ???and all that achieved was to break all keybindings starting with meta. >> > > >> > > In what buffer? If there's a local binding, it will shadow the >> > > global one, so to be sure rebind both. >> > >> > I *scratch* (so in emacs-lisp-mode). It does work in fundamental mode, but it still breaks meta (M-x is undefined after redefining ESC) >> >> The original question was about redefining ESC. How to do that >> without making Meta undefined is a separate issue. (ESC by default is >> the prefix key of the Meta keymap, so it's a small wonder that >> redefining ESC breaks Meta. You will have the same effect if you >> redefine C-x: all the C-x sequences will stop working.) >> > >So for a lot of users, using graphical Emacs, not knowing the >intricacies of af tty the following is rather baffling: >C-[ is ESC, ESC is Meta and Meta is Alt. >(For a confusing definition of "is") >This is one of the things that makes Emacs feel very archaic. I do >believe that most users coming to Emacs during the last 5-10 years are >using the graphical version. Yeah we should keep the ability to use >both the tty version and the graphical version as is. But forcing this >schema on everyone is not really beneficial. > I partially agree here because the few users I know that came to emacs are using only the tty version, because we work in servers and remote machines (and tramp is not always useful for us). Basically we wanted a decent editor for the terminal without modes. Said that, with the right terminal emulator (say xterm, rxvt or some others) it is possible to customize this behavior very similar to what the gui does. And it is even possible to provide a config to do so (if there are issues) in order to send different commands for: C-i /= TAB C-m /= RET C-[ /= ESC C-? /= erase Or even make it case sensitive: C-letter /= C-S-letter So, actually forcing this schema is not due to technical reasons in my opinion, but backward (human) compatibility. If sometime this is properly fixed (there is an agreement), then some terminal users will be allowed to use Control- jkli or hjkl as arrows and the meta equivalents. But also we will have many new bindings to set (all the C-S-letter M-S-letter) that potentially could be set to opposite actions in some cases like undo/redo goto-next/goto-previous, zap-to-char-forward/zap-to-char-backward or new actions like transpose lines.