From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Is Elisp really that slow? Date: Fri, 17 May 2019 11:05:10 +0200 Message-ID: <20190517090510.GD9018@tuxteam.de> References: <83v9yb92c7.fsf@gnu.org> <878sv7sp3r.fsf@telefonica.net> <83r28z8zl9.fsf@gnu.org> <20190515210924.sijzy6mnpgzkt4gm@Ergus> <83ftpecwu1.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516161408.4dov3dwk5h4yoizn@Ergus> <838sv6cmwt.fsf@gnu.org> <20190516202327.5cgy2s4kppy3ahxa@Ergus> <871s0yqg2i.fsf@telefonica.net> <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yudcn1FV7Hsu/q59" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="112379"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri May 17 11:05:37 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYo4-000T3X-WF for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 11:05:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44891 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYo3-0003qP-KM for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:05:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34457) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYni-0003ok-Vj for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:05:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYnh-0002aQ-Dz for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:05:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:54938) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYng-0002YI-Um for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 05:05:13 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=OLLGMGTW7Q51crfbWZejEuVW9bwtryHCnwhDGZPOOkI=; b=ZoivEaFxhqmUdCzcvRZQFM0rgH/HEAtBuCkPbcHVIqh0JRZ7SApZVaqrgPXmadz3OgTK7CkKQwHimnYdX5A/09aKS1K8pg1QOEigE2qUJJIdBMmC5fDqrXixtgoDnH5zUD/b6aZxeSRm3NvoEee2V4xSuOTP8GbPygi8SZmZ5V1iQjdN3kwDC2h66gEBiVYdcEB/E1pLmOO6YKnRFsdggABdrFBYiqj9aDuGTNVgCzWYIUJo5bywc86QiOXsNIwjKeyeZJ04T/FOX/+6ZGlCs2YCef7G+ShzWl3jvGc0oWGQJgP0vQKQTVylNSY9rBxqYowKImS1/QlVLQ3gTNXraQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1hRYne-00031A-W2 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 17 May 2019 11:05:11 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <3210C8E9-7A74-47D6-81A0-470948E6D09C@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 5.199.139.25 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:120463 Archived-At: --yudcn1FV7Hsu/q59 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:28:00AM +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >=20 >=20 > > On May 17, 2019, at 5:50, =C3=93scar Fuentes wrote: > >=20 > >> so we need to offer some advantage on the first > >> try over the others to keep the users. > >=20 > > Emacs provides some advantages, but they are not apparent until you > > experience them. That's a problem for people grown on a culture of > > instant gratification. Emacs appeals to certain type of users who > > understand that gains require efforts. >=20 > I find that comment extremely condescending. >=20 > If "instant gratification" means finding a common ground on which one can= get started right away, then I'm all for it. >=20 > Considering the state of affairs, emacs seems first to appeal to people w= ho want to give priority to free software, at the *cost* of ease of use. Condescending seems to go both ways, mind you. > Access to free software should never be the sole privilege of "users who = understand that gains require efforts". Quite the opposite. Fully agreed here. > > The really big problem is that Emacs no longer compete on areas were it= used to bring the largest gains. Other editors largely surpassed Emacs' ga= ins while requiring less effort. >=20 > Eli earlier clearly identified a number of areas where emacs required hug= e and totally undue efforts to get the thing to work as expected in the 21s= t century.=20 Yes, and to achieve that, we gotta work together. It doesn't help to insinuate intentions as you did above ;-) Point is -- perhaps there's a tradeoff between initial ease-of-use efficient for experienced users and the way from "here" to "there"? Perhaps it takes more effort to come up with a software which is good at all three departments? I'm convinced that conventional software has promoted patterns which tend to keep users in dependency (much more so in the Web "application" space[1], because there it's strategic for your business), and that those patterns infiltrate our way of seeing things -- therefore they end up in free software too, for no reason. Cheers [1] Actually, those have names, like, e.g. Dark Patterns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_pattern -- tom=C3=A1s --yudcn1FV7Hsu/q59 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlzeeUYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kaKgACcCMJO7P8o/kDYz1rCuU68madJ dk0AnR92nCexELFBYYumsBVqOD33BUkQ =sVwz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yudcn1FV7Hsu/q59--