From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Proulx Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Google Gmail mailing list bounces Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:18:21 -0700 Message-ID: <20190220115853855643126@bob.proulx.com> References: <20190218122758037230128@bob.proulx.com> <5b2967d4-2428-c475-c37c-021c52cdca40@gmail.com> <834l90jvri.fsf@gnu.org> <1ac0dbd6-5d0e-52f4-d34c-d89391e89f43@gmail.com> <83lg2bivne.fsf@gnu.org> <20190219095700191526550@bob.proulx.com> <83d0nnit0o.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="233055"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 20 20:18:56 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gwXOR-000yW1-KQ for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 20:18:55 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46797 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gwXOQ-0000Jg-4s for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:18:54 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49786) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gwXO5-0000JI-FH for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:18:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gwXO3-000610-HA for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:18:33 -0500 Original-Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:34690) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gwXO0-0005ux-L6 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 14:18:29 -0500 Original-Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 568BB180 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:18:22 -0700 (MST) Original-Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D0221244 for ; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:18:22 -0700 (MST) Original-Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1432B2DC7C; Wed, 20 Feb 2019 12:18:21 -0700 (MST) Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83d0nnit0o.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 96.88.95.61 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:119496 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > I haven't been so kind and generous. There are so many mailing lists > > that I filter out all of the mailman administrivia messages. Eli has > > gone above and beyond to take care of emacs-devel and others he is > > maintaining. > > I really don't see how we can leave this to the subscribers > themselves: they just silently stop getting any messages from the > list, and it's anybody's guess when will they notice. If Mailman disables a subscriber due to bounces then later (due to a nightly cron?) Mailman sends a notice to the recipient that their subscription has been suspended saying it is due to excessive bounces and includes instructions on enabling delivery again. Therefore the user should notice if they are reading the email. Of course I know that I cycle in and out of reading email myself because of other time commitments that take me away from the email. So I might not notice for a while and then come back and find I had been suspended for some time. But for gnu.org lists at least there are archives available to backfill missing messages if desired. > IMO, it would be prudent if people who oversee GNU lists and > configure mailman could do something to prevent this automatic > blocking, because it makes no sense to me: why do we care so much > about a bounced message? Bounce messages are the only way to detect that subscribers fall off the planetary network. Because people move providers to abandon their old address trying to escape spam. Because people die. Because addresses as a natural course of order become undeliverable. Forever. If they were not removed from the list then the servers would become clogged up trying to deliver dead letters forever. Bounce handling is the only way to clean up. Sure some addresses are only temporarily undeliverable. That's why Mailman uses rate limits. Normally if there is a bounce or two it doesn't do anything other than bounce those individual messages. It is only when there are many that something must be wrong and delivery is suspended. And I don't have data to back this up but I think since Google is looking at how recent it has rejected incoming messages too that if delivery did not suspend that Google would not be given time to reset either. Therefore I think that Mailman's delivery suspension is needed to back off to give Google time to not reject any more messages and therefore reset its timers. Unblocking manually by natural course happens after a delay. We have to sleep sometime. Therefore doesn't fall into problems. Or if it does it just extends the cycle a cycle and then the natural delay before unblocking is enough on the next round. So all good. > But if this wouldn't happen, I can't see how could I NOT unblock > subscribers who fell victim to this atrocity. It sounds the same > part of my duties as reviewing messages held for moderation. Well... If Google were more responsive then I would be more sympathetic. But if they can ignore the problem then surely I can do exactly the same thing on the problem they created. I am sympathetic to users caught in the trap. I will try to help them. If by nothing more than communicating what I know about what is happening. But there is only so much time in the day. And users are notified by Mailman that delivery has been blocked and with instructions on unblocking them. They can self-service fix their own delivery unblocking. This spreads the work of the problem out among everyone. Certainly not the best solution I agree. But Google is making money from selling users while the rest of us are volunteering time and resources. So it is not a level playing field. Bob