From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Where is Emacs Lisp taught ? Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:04:09 +0100 Message-ID: <20181115080409.GA4254@tuxteam.de> References: <5B8BFDC9-A07B-48FE-8C97-1BB0B84E5577@gmail.com> <865zxruycx.fsf@zoho.com> <875zxr7zke.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="FCuugMFkClbJLl1L" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1542268988 2617 195.159.176.226 (15 Nov 2018 08:03:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2018 08:03:08 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 15 09:03:04 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCcB-0000Y6-Ph for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:03:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37329 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCeI-0006et-7H for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:05:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:43867) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCdk-0006cQ-1j for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:04:43 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCdT-0001xr-Ph for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:04:29 -0500 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:32871) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCdR-0001rA-Fw for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 03:04:22 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=vzv5aQr37C7iQYz0vbVS3kz40BtPbxe2iwfy58aURtQ=; b=M4PCKMCuXXlMgRW+0srzkWd2v1pq6CItZ3tcKneAtSS4LAiO0u5rGHEIBmWMPblMTWzPFKpUxxbKrrqMWkwbq76Ny+I08C9eOeoi+k7XQChEWOVf883VOAl4BqO1KCDyuDBu7gftzxHMV++8E+Y1YMfnJYGCPD7iFOP4II/Harm46X7IFWaw+zcpPqYBOZvIuFHwnGicxn2K2uICeGdcnDIv6H8wTNyKq1cJ8PS13QQcRZDj3aU+J3OxKCF3fldS3b9Mvr/UdczsneqiBpBDnVePd3R7Xyjv1bm+EpyyRTbWtuJU0PSmPB0Lr/G3VX/CkjfxYbBpjNDaDECDXiO2Bw==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1gNCdF-0001Gp-OL for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 15 Nov 2018 09:04:09 +0100 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 5.199.139.25 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:118671 Archived-At: --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 10:08:12PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > Programming editor commands has the additional advantage that a program= need > > not be very large to be tangibly useful in editing. A first project can= be > > very simple. One can thus slide very smoothly from using the editor to = edit > > into learning to program with it. >=20 > Of course, after 30 years of development, most of the things a beginner > will want has already been coded up, so the beginner's reaction nowadays > is to look for a package which provides the thing he's longing for. A beginner nowadays will scream "Eeek! Text! What is this?" (yeah, very much tongue in cheek ;-P Actually, I (as an oldtimer) have the pleasure to meet a very diverse bunch of "beginners", some of which really enjoy poking at things the same way it has ever been. For those, Emacs is always a temptation... One of the biggest assets of Emacs is that you not only can hack at it, but that it tells you the way (the Lisp machine heritage, I suppose). > Missing this opportunity to learn to hack along the way. Hm. As of late (perhaps it's the beginning of dementia?) I rather have the impression that things haven't changed that much. Of course, being a "professional programmer" has become way more boring, nowadays you just stick components together without knowing too much about how they work [1]. But hacker mentality somehow survives, it's just that the percentage of hackers needed in the field of software munging (I don't dare call it "engineering", yet) is shrinking, as it is to be expected in a maturing field. At least, in our current social context. Phew :-) [1] http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5335 (I can't find the original reference, but the discussion there might give you an idea) Cheers -- tom=C3=A1s --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlvtKHkACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbNPgCfaV3sj0TNoJJKdNK4TC0lZ2B4 1FMAn1G5KaNhPMPkrfOFmgsqmo17kbx9 =2fVR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --FCuugMFkClbJLl1L--