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From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
Cc: hw@adminart.net, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org, yurivkhan@gmail.com,
	Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>,
	phillip.lord@russet.org.uk
Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 10:52:25 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20180916105225.GA4579@ACM> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20180915194419.bty3fzs5tnjez3pq@Ergus>

Hello, Ergus.

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 21:44:19 +0200, Ergus wrote:

> I have also interacted with hw and I totally disagree that he doesn't
> want to use emacs. Maybe it is because I am a "younger" emacs users
> too, or that I have tried many other editors & IDEs, but I understand
> what he says and the fear the first time a user opens emacs comparing
> to other similar tools. He just perceives the same than I: Emacs needs
> changes to simplify the user experience, but any key change faces too
> much resistance.

> My approach is 

> 1) To keep the default things AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE for the user in
> any case, specially in a basic software like a text editor. (SIMPLE
> and INTUITIVE if possible)

By "simple and intuitive" I think you just mean "like other editors the
user may have already used".  What could be simpler than Emacs's point,
mark and region scheme, and still get the job done?

> 2) I agree with the Eli's approach to find a mean point that makes
> less unhappy most of the people (if possible).

That means, I think, being able to customise Emacs to suit ones' own
preferences.

> 3) But interface changes are needed to survive, they require care to
> avoid conflicts and reduce the collapse with backward compatibility,
> but are needed.

> NEVERTHELESS

> The mark-point approach is not a fundamental emacs thing, it is just a
> design choice enforced for technical limitations 40 years ago (like the
> vi modes, the meta-hyper-syntax and so on) This means that (citing Bill
> Joy about vi) it was created for a world that doesn't exist anymore. So
> it can (and should) be updated/upgraded as many other things in emacs
> and any long living project.

I can't let this pass without comment.  The point, mark, region approach
(I'm considering it here without the complications introduced by
transient-mark-mode) is a stroke of genius, combining austere simplicity
with great flexibility and ease of use.  How well do you understand this
approach?

Just what were these technical limitations which you assert gave rise to
point/mark/region?  The world which gave rise to it may no longer exist,
but the idea is so good that it remains powerful and relevant.
Analogously, the worlds which gave rise to the pottery which
archaeologists dig up are no more, but we still make and use pottery
today.

I fear that by "updated/upgraded" you really mean "made more
complicated, less flexible, and (possibly) dumbed down".

You say "it should be updated/upgraded".  Somebody has to do this work.
Are you prepared to contribute, yourself?  Proposals for changes,
particularly drastic changes, tend to be much better received here when
they come in the form of patches rather than just vague ideas.

[ .... ]

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).



  parent reply	other threads:[~2018-09-16 10:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 253+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-09-07  0:32 delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Noam Postavsky
2018-09-07  0:35 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  6:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  9:18   ` delete-selection-mode as default hw
2018-09-07 13:16     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-07 13:28       ` Robert Pluim
2018-09-07 13:47         ` Dmitry Gutov
2018-09-07 13:50         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 14:16           ` Robert Pluim
2018-09-07 16:02             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 17:08               ` Robert Pluim
2018-09-07 20:28                 ` Jostein Kjønigsen
2018-09-07 14:22           ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-08 23:11             ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-09  5:49               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 16:16                 ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-09 14:22               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-16 23:34             ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-17  0:36               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-17 22:37                 ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-17 23:12                   ` Drew Adams
2018-09-17 23:21                     ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-17 23:36                       ` Drew Adams
2018-09-19  6:53                   ` Jostein Kjønigsen
2018-09-19 22:44                     ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-07 14:39       ` hw
2018-09-07 16:27         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-08 17:37         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-09  5:15           ` hw
2018-09-08  5:14       ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-08 11:32         ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-09-08 14:01           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 15:52           ` hw
2018-09-08 19:31             ` Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-09  3:19               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09  6:08               ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09 14:48                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10 11:50                   ` hw
2018-09-11  4:25                     ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-10  7:52                 ` hw
2018-09-10 11:52               ` visual-region-mode? (was: delete-selection-mode as default) hw
2018-09-10 20:02                 ` Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-11  5:43                   ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-11 18:25                     ` Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-12  5:12                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-12  6:59                         ` visual-region-mode? Andreas Schwab
2018-09-12  7:12                           ` visual-region-mode? Yuri Khan
2018-09-12  7:44                             ` visual-region-mode? Andreas Schwab
2018-09-12 18:31                         ` visual-region-mode? (was: delete-selection-mode as default) Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-16 22:55                     ` visual-region-mode? Juri Linkov
2018-09-11 21:56                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-12 19:47                     ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-12 20:40                       ` visual-region-mode? Drew Adams
2018-09-12 20:50                       ` visual-region-mode? Juri Linkov
2018-09-13  4:01                         ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-13  4:00                       ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-13 17:22                         ` visual-region-mode? Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-13 20:08                           ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-13 20:42                         ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-15 19:21                           ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-16 19:31                             ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-17 20:36                               ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-17 22:24                                 ` visual-region-mode? Drew Adams
2018-09-17 23:11                                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-18  0:11                                     ` visual-region-mode? Juri Linkov
2018-09-18 12:32                                     ` visual-region-mode? Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 19:22                                 ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-19  1:45                                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-19 19:22                                     ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-19 20:04                                       ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-20 18:14                                         ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-21 20:28                                           ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-24 17:42                                             ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-24 18:07                                               ` visual-region-mode? Yuri Khan
2018-09-29 11:18                                                 ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-10-03 13:13                                                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-10-04 20:20                                                     ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-26 22:00                                               ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-27 21:01                                                 ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-10-03 13:59                                                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-24 20:24                                             ` visual-region-mode? Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-26 18:12                                               ` visual-region-mode? Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-26 22:45                                               ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-09-27 17:26                                                 ` visual-region-mode? Alan Mackenzie
2018-10-03 15:43                                                   ` visual-region-mode? hw
2018-10-03 17:03                                                     ` visual-region-mode? Alan Mackenzie
     [not found]                                             ` <<m2ftxy3i79.fsf@aurox.ch>
2018-09-24 20:39                                               ` visual-region-mode? Drew Adams
2018-09-12 20:27                     ` visual-region-mode? Juri Linkov
2018-09-08 18:16           ` delete-selection-mode as default Dmitry Gutov
2018-09-09  7:42             ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-09-09 14:25               ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-07  9:40   ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 13:41     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 11:37       ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-08 14:04         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 15:35     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 16:16       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-07 19:01   ` tomas
2018-09-07 19:23     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 20:28       ` tomas
2018-09-08 23:19         ` delete-selection-mode as default Juri Linkov
2018-09-09  8:02           ` tomas
2018-09-07 20:33     ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Noam Postavsky
2018-09-07 21:31       ` tomas
2018-09-10  8:01         ` delete-selection-mode as default Robert Pluim
2018-09-10  8:09           ` tomas
2018-09-09 13:45   ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-09 14:22     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-09 15:12     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10 11:42     ` delete-selection-mode as default Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-09 20:39   ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Joost Kremers
2018-09-09 22:24     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  3:08       ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-10  3:17         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  5:15       ` Bingo
2018-09-10 13:34         ` delete-selection-mode as default Stefan Monnier
2018-09-10  8:46       ` hw
2018-09-10 18:16       ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-10 18:35         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-10 19:19           ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-10 20:36         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-11 22:34           ` delete-selection-mode as default hw
2018-09-12  0:04             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-13  2:58               ` hw
2018-09-12 13:16             ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-12 13:41               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-12 14:53                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-12 15:51               ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-12 15:59                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-12 16:36                   ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-13  3:59               ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-09-13  4:16               ` hw
2018-09-13 17:46                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-13 20:32                   ` hw
2018-09-14 10:48                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-14 13:41                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-14 14:03                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-14 15:37                           ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-14 14:29                         ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-14 14:32                           ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-14 14:33                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-14 15:23                           ` Drew Adams
2018-09-14 18:49                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-15 21:20                             ` hw
2018-09-15 22:37                           ` hw
2018-09-16  0:22                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-16  3:15                               ` hw
2018-09-16  3:34                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-16 13:48                                   ` hw
2018-09-16 14:14                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-17 21:00                                       ` hw
2018-09-16 15:28                                     ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-16 16:30                                     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-16 16:59                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-16 18:20                                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-16 18:49                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-16 20:17                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-17 21:22                                       ` hw
2018-09-18 12:14                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 23:45                                           ` hw
2018-09-19  5:41                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-19 20:09                                               ` hw
     [not found]                                     ` <<831s9tidjc.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-16 18:04                                       ` Drew Adams
2018-09-16 18:17                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                         ` <<83va75gvc8.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-16 20:14                                           ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                       ` <<CAP_d_8VcFjkQQxzgv+XUheE4Q33vNgbuGpGwtv2-dOEBuK7OeQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                         ` <<83tvmpgtwe.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-16 20:29                                           ` Drew Adams
2018-09-17  5:28                                             ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-16  8:06                                 ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-16 13:36                                   ` hw
2018-09-16 16:48                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-17 22:11                               ` hw
2018-09-17 22:44                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-17 23:30                                   ` hw
2018-09-18 12:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 13:14                                   ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-18 14:14                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 15:28                                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-18 15:37                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-18 16:49                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 16:46                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-20  1:46                                     ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-20  5:45                                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-19  2:26                                   ` hw
2018-09-19  6:38                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-19 20:36                                       ` hw
     [not found]                           ` <<874leq799e.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                             ` <<205df9be-2e5c-4cc4-a13a-7c80eb63bedc@default>
     [not found]                               ` <<87in363zgq.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                                 ` <<aedad52c-aaf1-414d-bc8c-8e7d0284f4c8@default>
     [not found]                             ` <<835zz5ie17.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                               ` <<87musg0wyf.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                                 ` <<83va73f0mv.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                   ` <<CAP_d_8WFoHecEv-krQmAP0fWVSYXDLWuwdKfXwpcLbkJYYfWJQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                     ` <<83musegaf2.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                       ` <<CAP_d_8VH38kAdG3QZ4EiM_3-S+PVFg=7QyxZP6pZG_mc3Qct5w@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                         ` <<3f242636-6fa4-4e36-a37b-86f1d7088aae@default>
     [not found]                                           ` <<83h8img39b.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-18 17:42                                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-18 18:30                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-18 19:15                                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-14 15:15                         ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-09-14 14:33                       ` Drew Adams
2018-09-15 21:59                         ` hw
2018-09-15 20:31                       ` hw
2018-09-11 23:30           ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-12  0:13             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  7:05     ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 13:41       ` delete-selection-mode as default Stefan Monnier
2018-09-10 14:01         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 14:19           ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-10 14:24         ` Drew Adams
     [not found]         ` <<83tvmxo3iy.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-10 14:30           ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10 14:54             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 16:09             ` Yuri Khan
     [not found]         ` <<<83tvmxo3iy.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <<c7872ab4-8a1b-43bc-aeb4-2d08bc899857@default>
     [not found]             ` <<83muspo12f.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-10 15:25               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-11  4:22       ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Richard Stallman
2018-09-11  7:48         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-12  0:33           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-11  8:08         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-12  0:33           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-12 14:07             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-11 12:36         ` delete-selection-mode as default Stefan Monnier
2018-09-11 23:09           ` hw
2018-09-12  0:33           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-12 13:23             ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-13  3:33               ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]   ` <<87sh2ih0bp.fsf@fastmail.fm>
     [not found]     ` <<770f48a8-664a-40ae-8e03-19f6aad248b6@default>
     [not found]       ` <<20180910181615.GA4829@ACM>
     [not found]         ` <<ab70ed3e-96a7-446f-be9b-e02130e71927@default>
     [not found]           ` <<874lev3bq4.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]             ` <<20180912131602.GA5582@ACM>
     [not found]               ` <<87d0tihxzw.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                 ` <<20180913174640.GB4019@ACM>
     [not found]                   ` <<8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                     ` <<20180914104833.GA4103@ACM>
     [not found]                       ` <<CAP_d_8WpO9+w-W1ZXMyoucUNtofNQ3Bc6Gchmxj6Rgy1nm3FOA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                         ` <<83k1nojgia.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                           ` <<7bed1f76-5bae-44cb-9b22-206b513043be@default>
     [not found]                             ` <<83d0tfkj77.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-14 20:57                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-15  7:50                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-15 10:20                                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-15 10:56                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-15 19:44                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-15 20:01                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-16  0:29                                         ` Ergus
2018-09-16 16:55                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-16 10:52                                       ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
     [not found]                                         ` <3D72B095-01EC-4E7D-90F9-5691AEFE16DC@aol.com>
2018-09-17  2:17                                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-17  5:46                                             ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-09-17 18:37                                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-17 19:57                                               ` hw
2018-09-17 22:56                                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-15 15:02                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-15 15:27                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-15 18:30                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-15 20:04                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-16  3:14                                     ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]                                 ` <<83zhwji4hx.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-17  0:55                                   ` Drew Adams
2018-10-03  0:22                                     ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-03 17:38                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08  5:13 ` delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Richard Stallman
2018-09-08 14:54   ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09  1:23     ` Ergus
2018-09-08 17:25   ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-08 18:08   ` delete-selection-mode as default Stefan Monnier
2018-09-09  6:08     ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09  7:56       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-09 14:33       ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  5:47         ` Richard Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-09-08  3:46 delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Bingo
2018-09-08 15:03 ` delete-selection-mode as default hw
2018-09-08 16:15   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 23:27     ` hw
2018-09-09  1:15       ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-09  3:33         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09 17:41         ` hw
2018-09-08 16:31   ` Bingo
2018-09-10  2:33     ` hw

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