From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 22:38:51 +0200 Message-ID: <20180904203851.b7k3v7tefgr7s3yi@Ergus> References: <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536093469 18253 195.159.176.226 (4 Sep 2018 20:37:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 20:37:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Phillip Lord Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 04 22:37:45 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxI52-0004ZP-5q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 22:37:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52570 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxI78-0001bq-GM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:39:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59074) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxI6W-0001bk-5z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:39:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxI6S-0001yo-Nj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:39:15 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.176.99]:45416) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxI6Q-0001tX-MC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:39:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1536093541; bh=c1VEJCFqPmg1Fx7RiOofVDtGB/DRgW5BBcbYaRDhXNU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=EJodduKDOp5WfOyW2EkflY5tGUwMxQvU0dewSJS7DPHQsS7I1TiXpsOR/IEGLx/yq5Yxw2oPvqGfhhxcYxX7NnCb96h5/HKN+WhdIKf9G4e+mUnuwLifWXXlq1V7WSf9Bu8bkvmzJ/JjcLmgzooC6EUzWLg7LEhnwoAkso3CBJ9bCIQDKnIWztyVpWMoYYyUwGz5UfMbZw3xhqtYqDF4VvHH9rNg+H5IhjvXAzn+y0ED01VctFnwEj55KYjtMUg2c/PB9Hl9PgqA+xEFcMTyGDP5W4UjmKz5Fmyb2hRrhPC6OGCjoIaLPno7ry1Zh24hRxdQND4lh5PhOtyYXppSRQ== X-YMail-OSG: A8HRCQsVM1lr_neRGU2uV7qjtAyVDaLi5mgYUHV_XaL1V5pBJk7Fi4tVp6GcHF3 RSsVbUjbni71DfvOWHB38utAV2mukhQww0h8su2MI1erGDCw.bFaKCmfIFXy_g0AGurd3PPVJOys kflx.RkTstFP91I2Y9jZJeuRRF_a9OlJWLYdTAgpxuIB39Wikg0T1LPpAQ3WsC38z0aLcM.wkPSp EaE3laZZsqYup9t6TAsLAXJ4.0S8mOT_MrsCvIH2Dw6PkQjsprAaeYnQkThzic8oCiZuMsZuyP6f HzFmzEiS5vb_NJvmoAq1vCfNWyQPmK_6iXo1lQgFZ9O58ZBwDYXicRgd0NVjNREui9j3VtYVewmM Uis6_h7YXzqu.uDMQs_dBGZ8jybkdapKc2brDU30WNeq5S3q2W6lEPgmMSDiGbO1BfULu6lxIjvK j3gtKtJGnfKCi.gl6oKev_u_7lmQjhIauqaYS.Htlrn7HmWIRxs1d6qh8_QBXT4d_0Rt55PJtsaQ wChl7EEMtblZveVaLN_lBieZ5Lr3fXL_PMKlt8B_TrKznprkDrdTwveaHFHwCrBZABbiWse8XzpL nZ0f48wbv8hMSQ4Kc2wa5w4F9SikwU8b.gck4dXx3Rz1xJOXQK5waovaqXHqXj_JymbJR5x8vKE7 I1DiNEMRTNMWFf9PsX.ZYmRfCJTbEG1nX9ZNNjczqTkJKY0dnimQlmxMTjgaun2m1hUt4Z2Xd7_k _Wt73arFC4XMP._Qa7YjPSFaPjePimpouB_ojJUIuLzLV0RKN_no6z0zQWizZVc01UmWwigbcYkB bYPFkHGsH.fOiZJZXIisreQH4QdM6XI7AUrKmJkFBb Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 20:39:01 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp407.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 8d26c33fc6a5040568cf236dc026ec4e; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 20:38:58 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.176.99 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229264 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 02:58:53PM +0200, Phillip Lord wrote: >Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> My hope was to do something a bit more intelligent with it -- with some >>> screen shots and rich text, as well as highlighting for menu items, so I >>> wrote it in org-mode. Alas I haven't had the time to actually integrate >>> it into Emacs. >>> >>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/phillord/emacs-tutorial/master/tutorial.org >>> >>> If someone has the time to do the integration it's nearly ready to >>> go. To my mind, updating the tutorial would be a good thing just because >>> it would give the impression that it is updateable, rather than a thing >>> set in stone. >> >> Thanks. That tutorial looks like a somewhat expanded version of our >> TUTORIAL; e.g., it has almost the same scope in terms of Emacs >> features. I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that we were talking about a >> tutorial for the next step -- for those who have read the original >> TUTORIAL and want to learn about more advanced issues related to text >> editing. > >It covers some never stuff, but yes, it is fairly similar. Personally, I >would like to ditch all the "how to move around" with keys stuff -- this >scares most people to hell, because they think that they need to learn >this to do something that they already know how to do these things. > I thing mentioning that move with arrows + keybindings is possible and would be a more elegant approach. Because some users know how to move in bash or will find it interesting/useful to know that C-a, C-e, C-d, C-j, C-i and so on are useful also in bash. (Also to tribute the history a little bit). For example, vim has its terrible bindings, they mention in the tutorial and some people like them because they feel more geek using them. Some of them are easier to access in some keyboards (C-d in my case for example). So maybe a table could have two columns with the traditional and the "modern" alternative. And let the user choose (or mix). >In terms of advanced issues, my thought was to enable tutorial >extensions to go into ELPA and then have a navigational structure. The >current tutorial for the even trivial reason that it's flat. > The tutorial should mention how to add packages or at least introduce the concepts (package, repository, extension, elpa, melpa), and a bit less of history. But just at the very end in order to create some expectations in the new user. Even if it is only to mention as an approximation, and let the practical things in the manual. Personally I don't like the navigational structure because the simpler structure is better for the tutorial until the user can do the basics. A tutorial should feel like being inside emacs already as everyday. >Phil >