all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
To: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
Cc: hw@adminart.net, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Some developement questions
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:52:17 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20180902175217.qmc6oqj74gcmzwcs@Ergus> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <E1fwInk-0003Xc-Le@fencepost.gnu.org>

I find the new one a little bit more simple, very basic, but some
details are updated in a less technical language. It assumes that for
new users coming from windows, vim, sublime, Visual Studio...; Emacs
will be a more different (hard maybe) experience than what they expect
and are used to. (For example coping with C-c, C-v, and having an undo
and a redo option is an absolute standard thing today and it is still
different in emacs; also nobody uses the words yank, kill, reinsert
anymore, the people looks for how to cut, copy and paste)

The actual tutorial is fine, but in my modest opinion I would like to
suggest some pedagogical changes like divide it by numbered lessons, put
numbers to the tasks, add summaries per lesson, some aesthetic
horizontal lines... Please, give a look for example to the vimtutor. It
has a very good approach in this aspects.

Respecting to content maybe some details about using overwrite-mode
(using the Insert key of course), moving/copping/switching
lines/words/letters, interactive replace (M-%) shell commands (M-| and
M-! and in-place insertion), insert-buffer/file and equivalent
commands. Practical examples about killing N words or N lines and paste
them somewhere else. Goto line is also important on the beginning.

In i think that the emacs tutorial should explain at least the same
points than vimtutor respecting to text edition because that's the first
thing the user expects to do in emacs. If some edition actions in the
vimtutor are not possible or very complex to do in emacs maybe we need
to consider how to add them in a simpler way because they are very basic
(for example copy the current line requires C-a C-SPC C-e M-w). These
details are more important and basic for a new user than recursive
editing modes or talking about multiple frames/windows in the first day.

We should also mention there helpful things like which-key, ido-mode, linum which makes our lives easier.

Does it makes sense?

On Sat, Sep 01, 2018 at 11:11:48PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote:
>[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
>[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
>[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>The existing TUTORIAL file is designed so that you try out the commands
>while editing TUTORIAL itself.
>
>I get the impression that the proposed new tutorial doesn't do that.
>
>What are the intended advantages of the new one?
>-- 
>Dr Richard Stallman
>President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
>Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>
>



  reply	other threads:[~2018-09-02 17:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 216+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <444779489.8504194.1534538988289.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
2018-08-17 20:49 ` Some developement questions Ergus
2018-08-18  6:21   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 12:34     ` hw
2018-08-22 14:45       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 16:37         ` hw
2018-08-22 17:31           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-22 22:17             ` hw
2018-08-23  0:20               ` Ergus
2018-08-23 10:50                 ` hw
2018-08-23 16:33                   ` Ergus
2018-08-23 14:20                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-23  8:26               ` Pierre Neidhardt
2018-08-23 14:04               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-24  1:00                 ` hw
2018-08-24  9:04                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-25  0:45                     ` Ergus
2018-08-26 12:46                       ` hw
2018-08-25  1:31                     ` hw
2018-08-25  7:35                       ` Alexis
2018-08-25 10:34                         ` Ergus
2018-08-25 16:11                           ` Radon Rosborough
2018-08-25 16:20                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-25 20:34                               ` Ergus
2018-08-26  2:41                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26  1:24                               ` Radon Rosborough
2018-08-25 20:50                             ` Ergus
2018-08-26  1:33                             ` hw
2018-08-26 14:37                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26 22:51                                 ` hw
2018-08-27 14:45                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-28 20:42                                     ` hw
2018-08-29  6:59                                       ` Michael Albinus
2018-08-29 20:10                                         ` hw
2018-08-31 13:16                                           ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-01 17:53                                             ` hw
2018-09-03 13:35                                               ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-04 14:06                                                 ` hw
2018-08-29 15:11                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-29 20:52                                         ` hw
2018-08-29 22:12                                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-30 23:49                                             ` hw
2018-09-03 18:56                                               ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-04 14:16                                                 ` hw
2018-09-04 19:47                                                   ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-05 20:36                                                     ` hw
2018-09-06  1:33                                                       ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-09-06  5:16                                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06  5:29                                                           ` Michael Heerdegen
2018-09-06 13:52                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                                         ` <<831sa6ybqu.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 14:30                                                           ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  7:03                                                         ` hw
2018-09-06 13:48                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  7:01                                                         ` hw
2018-09-06 18:15                                                       ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-07  7:18                                                         ` hw
2018-09-07 14:10                                                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-07 21:27                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 12:29                                                               ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-10 18:18                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-11  9:51                                                                   ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-09-11 20:14                                                                     ` hw
2018-09-12  1:18                                                                       ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-30  2:12                                           ` Davis Herring
2018-09-01 17:40                                             ` hw
2018-09-01 19:41                                               ` Joshua Branson
2018-09-02 15:07                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 18:23                                                   ` Ergus
2018-09-04 15:21                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 20:57                                                       ` Ergus
2018-09-05 21:48                                                         ` hw
2018-09-01 22:13                                               ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-02 15:39                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 22:01                                                   ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-03  7:30                                                     ` martin rudalics
2018-09-04 15:35                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 16:44                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05 22:21                                                         ` hw
2018-09-03  7:29                                                   ` martin rudalics
2018-09-01 22:30                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-02 16:02                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 17:50                                               ` Ergus
2018-08-30 13:44                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-31  0:40                                             ` hw
2018-09-01 18:47                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-02 16:27                                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 17:12                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-04 15:43                                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 16:46                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05 22:40                                                         ` hw
2018-08-30 23:30                               ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-01 18:25                                 ` hw
2018-09-02 19:05                                   ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-02 20:42                                     ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2018-09-03  2:37                                       ` Radon Rosborough
2018-09-04 15:57                                     ` hw
2018-08-26 20:41                             ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-27  2:33                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-27 22:51                                 ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-27 17:11                           ` Filipp Gunbin
2018-08-28  3:41                             ` Ergus
2018-08-26 13:06                         ` hw
2018-08-27  2:18                           ` Ergus
2018-08-25  8:19                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-26 14:25                         ` Noam Postavsky
2018-08-26 15:52                         ` hw
2018-08-26 16:23                           ` Stefan Monnier
2018-08-27  4:59                             ` hw
2018-08-27  1:54                           ` Ergus
2018-08-27 14:46                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-28 21:26                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-08-29 15:39                               ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-01 13:59                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-02  3:11                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-02 17:52                                     ` Ergus [this message]
2018-09-04 15:20                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 13:07                                     ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-05  6:26                                       ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-06  0:29                                         ` hw
2018-09-07  6:39                                           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-07  8:01                                             ` hw
2018-09-07 10:26                                               ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 14:00                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2018-09-07 14:20                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 16:00                                                   ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                                   ` <<83zhwttmm7.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-07 16:03                                                     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 14:15                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 15:34                                                   ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 21:03                                                     ` hw
2018-09-07 15:52                                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-08  5:13                                               ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-08 13:02                                                 ` hw
2018-09-08 16:19                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 23:23                                                     ` hw
2018-09-09  5:29                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  9:35                                                         ` hw
2018-09-10 12:37                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 19:27                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 13:52                                                           ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-09  6:07                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09  6:07                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-09  6:23                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 17:18                                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-10 11:59                                                     ` hw
2018-09-10 12:40                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 19:48                                                         ` hw
2018-09-11  7:07                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-11 20:31                                                             ` hw
2018-09-06 13:59                                         ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 12:58                                   ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-04 16:30                                     ` hw
2018-09-04 19:13                                       ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-04 20:11                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-04 20:31                                           ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-06 12:32                                             ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-06 14:25                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-04 21:14                                         ` Ergus
2018-09-05  2:40                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-05  6:29                                           ` Paul Eggert
2018-09-05  7:59                                             ` Joost Kremers
2018-09-05 15:27                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 20:07                                                 ` Joost Kremers
2018-09-09 20:10                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  5:16                                                   ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10  7:30                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10  8:26                                                       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10 12:06                                                         ` hw
2018-09-10 12:44                                                           ` Michael Albinus
2018-09-10 14:57                                                           ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-10 19:58                                                             ` hw
2018-09-11  6:31                                                               ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-11 20:37                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-10 12:52                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-06  1:11                                         ` hw
2018-09-06  1:41                                           ` Ergus
2018-09-07  8:11                                             ` hw
2018-09-06 12:29                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-06 14:24                                         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06 14:36                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  6:39                                             ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-07  8:25                                             ` hw
2018-09-07  9:34                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 13:22                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 14:48                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 16:34                                                     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 21:29                                                     ` hw
2018-09-08  6:21                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 13:12                                                         ` hw
2018-09-08 16:17                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 11:52                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 12:35                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-10 20:04                                                                 ` hw
2018-09-08 17:00                                                           ` Charles A. Roelli
2018-09-08 23:02                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2018-09-10  6:47                                                             ` hw
2018-09-10 14:13                                                               ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                                         ` <<87mussp1zu.fsf@toy.adminart.net>
     [not found]                                                           ` <<m2a7or53gj.fsf@aurox.ch>
2018-09-09  2:09                                                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09 23:05                                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 15:26                                               ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 21:53                                                 ` hw
2018-09-07 22:52                                                   ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                           ` <<83r2i6wv4v.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 14:56                                             ` Drew Adams
2018-09-06 18:38                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-06 19:27                                                 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-06 19:49                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                               ` <<83k1nywjwv.fsf@gnu.org>
2018-09-06 23:47                                                 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  6:36                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  8:16                                         ` hw
2018-09-04 20:38                                     ` Ergus
2018-09-06 12:58                                       ` Phillip Lord
2018-09-07  8:45                                       ` hw
2018-09-03 22:15                       ` debounce (was: Some developement questions) Juri Linkov
     [not found] <196033312.7709403.1534426446299.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
2018-08-16 13:34 ` Some developement questions Ergus
2018-08-16 14:15   ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-08-16 14:38     ` Aurélien Aptel
2018-08-16 15:28       ` Andy Moreton
2018-08-16 17:25         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <<87sh36inql.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net>
     [not found] <<8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org>

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20180902175217.qmc6oqj74gcmzwcs@Ergus \
    --to=spacibba@aol.com \
    --cc=eliz@gnu.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=hw@adminart.net \
    --cc=phillip.lord@russet.org.uk \
    --cc=rms@gnu.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.