From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#31597: 27.0.50; Annoying ' to =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=99?= translation Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:33:53 +0000 Message-ID: <20180527193353.GB11447@ACM> References: <20180527093215.6039.qmail@mail.muc.de> <83efhx84r1.fsf@gnu.org> <20180527171217.GA11447@ACM> <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527449709 24286 195.159.176.226 (27 May 2018 19:35:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:35:09 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) Cc: 31597@debbugs.gnu.org, eller.helmut@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 27 21:35:04 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1RY-0006Dg-D7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 21:35:04 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53031 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1Tf-0002Ws-FI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:37:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1TW-0002Wc-R5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:37:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1TS-0003iG-Hn for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:37:06 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:43379) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1TS-0003i6-Cy for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:37:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1TS-0003bE-6o for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:37:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Alan Mackenzie Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 19:37:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 31597 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 31597-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B31597.152744978513790 (code B ref 31597); Sun, 27 May 2018 19:37:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 31597) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 May 2018 19:36:25 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51276 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1Sr-0003aM-CF for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:36:25 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:39705 helo=mail.muc.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fN1Sp-0003aD-Qy for 31597@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 27 May 2018 15:36:24 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 43271 invoked by uid 3782); 27 May 2018 19:36:22 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B14677F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.103.127]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 27 May 2018 21:36:21 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 12223 invoked by uid 1000); 27 May 2018 19:33:53 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <831sdx806a.fsf@gnu.org> X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:146613 Archived-At: Hello, Eli. On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 20:42:53 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 17:12:17 +0000 > > Cc: eller.helmut@gmail.com, 31597@debbugs.gnu.org > > From: Alan Mackenzie > > > > The person behind the change, Paul Eggert, simply pushed it through > > > > without first securing agreement from Emacs as a whole, and had the > > > > political skills to prevent a consensus on the matter prevailing. > > > This misrepresents what Paul did and say, and I think is grossly > > > unfair to him. > > This was a highly controversial change. Paul could first have committed > > the changes on a branch and invited comment. > Saying this is a far cry from accusing Paul in nasty political tricks > and in deliberately sneaking controversial code behind our backs. He sneaked in this code in front of our noses, but none of us really appreciated what was going on. I certainly didn't (until later). > > You weren't really involved in the fight against this. I was, and it > > exhausted me. > I hear you, and you should know very well that I'm not too > enthusiastic about this change, either. But we should be able to > disagree without name-calling. It was me that rolled with the punches. Soon after this thing started, I committed an "emergency" user option to allow people to disable this forced character substitution. Within hours, this option had been "polluted" so as not quite to work. And shortly before Emacs 25 was released, the option was quietly degraded to a non-option variable, which one of the manuals said was for "advanced use" only. This is the sort of manoevering I was up against. (The option is now back in Emacs 26.) > > > I wish we avoided such ad-hominem attacks, just because we disagree. > > Eli, my view of things is NOT an ad-hominem. An ad-hominem is when one > > argues by attacking a _person_. My paragraph above does not do this: it > > criticizes Paul's _actions_. I think it is a fair summary of what > > actually happened. > The wording you've chosen to do that is what I hope we could avoid. OK. But I don't think it's healthy to pretend that the above didn't happen, and that everybody is kind, considerate, and respectful to everybody else all the time. I don't think either of us want anything like this to happen again. I would hope that, in future, all controversial changes get argued out first, and if committed to the repository, they go on a branch first. And the OP, Helmut Eller, deserves an explanation of how the current state of affairs, which he has reported as a bug, came about. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).