From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Bob Proulx Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: ESC vs Meta for shifted keys Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:13:19 -0600 Message-ID: <20180414214929381365153@bob.proulx.com> References: <86tvsiaoe3.fsf@zoho.com> <86fu3x6zy6.fsf@zoho.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1523765508 24183 195.159.176.226 (15 Apr 2018 04:11:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 04:11:48 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.9.4 (2018-02-28) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 15 06:11:44 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Z0x-0006Cg-22 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 06:11:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36594 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Z33-0006pa-PA for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:13:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54626) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Z2c-0006p2-3d for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:13:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Z2X-0002Wz-T9 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:13:26 -0400 Original-Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:47237) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f7Z2X-0002Wl-Kp for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 00:13:21 -0400 Original-Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D2FB2775 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:13:20 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FAAD211D3 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:13:20 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1DA512DC74; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:13:19 -0600 (MDT) Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <86fu3x6zy6.fsf@zoho.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 96.88.95.61 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:116518 Archived-At: Emanuel Berg wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > I use both interchangeably all of the time. > > And so does anyone using an XTerm with "Meta > > sends ESC" configured even if they never hit I should emphasize that that first sentence. I do so interchangeably all of the time. Because Control should be the key left of the A key I always remap the Capslock to be Control. This makes control as convenient as possible. I sometimes use Alt for meta. I sometimes use ESC before the key for meta. I sometimes use C-[ (both pinky fingers in action) to easily produce an ESC. I use all three at different times. > Here is how to disable caps and do something > else with it in X: > > setxkbmap -option caps:none # disable caps lock > xmodmap -e 'keycode 66=a' # rebind CAPS (66) I don't want to disable the key. I simply remap capslock into a control key. > > The symbolics keyboard actually had > > a *different* arrow set than has become > > standard. The current "standard" comes from > > the ADM-3a. I shouldn't have mentioned that part. It was extra information as "an aside". Because I thought it was interesting information. But I see it has just sent this discussion thread "off into the weeds". > > https://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/lear-siegler-adm3a-terminal-keyboard-t11780.html > > ... The Escape key > on that keyboard isn't current, it is much > closer which is probably why it was more > popular for this purpose on those keyboards. Yes. That was the point I was making. > The arrow set (h, j, k, l) is close to there > right hand, but somewhat unintuitive with ups > and downs, or at least not as intuitive as it > could be. During that era different terminal vendors produced different keyboard layouts. They were all different. That was annoying. > I think the arrow keys are best placed as: > > i = up > j = left k = down l = right Or a=left, s=down, d=right, w=up as has been common in other software. (This will be immediately recognizable to many. You mention that pattern further down.) Or perhaps C-s=left, C-d=right, C-w=up, C-x=down. (Others will recognize that set immediately too.) However because of vi/vim and less and other software the most popular combinations of keys has been h, j, k, l however. > My first computer was a Mac Plus and the games > there, like Lode Runner, this was used - for > Dark Castle it was correspondingly w, a, s, > d because with the right hand, one aimed the > rock throwing arm with the mouse. > This reappeared much later in 3D games such as > Quake btw. Yes. Designed for left hand on keyboard and right hand on mouse. That was also a common pattern for many CAD/EDA drawing programs I have used over the years. > Anyway I think the i, j, k, l set is the best > at is is close and intuitive. In many > applications, e.g. for viewing images and PDF > documents, I have implemented it, and in Emacs > I use it for Emacs-w3m, scrolling [1], and > so on. Awesome. I don't think I will convert though. And just to throw some more random info into here I will note that the i3 window manager default keys are j, k, l, ;, which are the same as h, j, k, l but shifted to the right one key because the i3 author feels that the home row of keys without moving the hand should be used. Same logic but a different result. It doesn't convert me either. :-) > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-cadet_keyboard > > Ha! I can't see anything on that photo. > Where are the Escape and arrow keys?! In case others can't pick it out the image is here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg I never used this keyboard in real life and so only have the photo to go upon. The arrow keys are g=up, h=down, j=left, k=right. I don't see an Escape key anywhere on it. Perhaps someone who used it might know and comment. That would be awesome. It's quite the keyboard. Bob