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From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Tom Tromey <tom@tromey.com>,
	Vitalie Spinu <spinuvit@gmail.com>,
	Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:20:37 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20171201182037.GF3840@ACM> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwv609q1li5.fsf-monnier+emacsdiffs@gnu.org>

Hello, Stefan.

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 11:26:08 -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> To rephrase, don't widen in indent-line-function or
> >> beginning-of-defun-function.
> > This is an intolerable restriction.  The low level function mentioned
> > above cannot, should not, must not know whether it's being called
> > (indirectly) from indent-line-function or b-o-d-function.

> It's a change.  So, to make it work right, some code will need to adapt.
> As mentioned by Dmitry, this shouldn't introduce breakage in general:

That has yet to be shown.

> the code will only need to adapt *if* it wants to work with
> multi-major-mode solutions.  For the normal use case, you can still
> widen/narrow to your heart's content and nobody will be the wiser.

If we're going to have a multi-major-mode solution (and I think we
should), let's at least get it right.  I.e., it should work with _any_
major mode without grotesque restrictions on that mode.

I would very much like to have AWK Mode working inside a
shell-script-mode buffer.  Why not?  The MMM solution which appears to
be being proposed won't achieve this.

I would very much like the option of handling C buffers as MMM buffers,
where macros would be handled by a (slightly) different mode from normal
code.  I'm not sure whether this is a good or practicable idea, but it
would be nice to have the option.

> There's nothing special here: any multi-major-mode solution will need to
> define some convention/protocol that major need to follow in order to
> work well.

No.  Our MMM solution should work without imposing restrictions on the
major modes.  All the awkwardness should be dealt with by the MMM.  This
is possible.

> Now if you worry that (after the code is adapted) the result is code
> that is too complex/brittle, time will tell, but I get the impression
> that it won't be too bad, likely no worse than any other solution.

As I keep saying, we should adapt a solution that doesn't place manacles
on hackers.

> The way your above situation would be handled is to say "the low level
> function mentioned above assumes that the buffer has already been
> properly widened".  This way, it doesn't need to know whether it's being
> called (indirectly) from indent-line-function or b-o-d-function.

Then it ceases to be a general low level function and becomes one that
can only be called in certain circumstances.  This effectively transmits
high level state to the low levels, and isn't good software engineering.

> But some of its callers may need to be changed to do the widening, and
> indeed, in order to know how far to widen, they'll need the help from
> the multi-major-mode package.

This is intolerable.  It will lead to twisted code.

Why should a major mode need to know "how far to widen"?  This is only
due to the proposal to misuse narrowing to control regions with
different syntax-tables, I think.  If these regions are controlled
without using narrowing, this and many other problems cease to exist.

> So maybe we need something like:

>     (defvar prog-widen-function #'widen)
>     (defun prog-widen () (funcall prog-widen-function))

No, we need

    (widen)

like we've had for many decades.

> [ And maybe for the same reason, we need a function (rather than
>   a variable) that returns the `first-column`, so we can get the info
>   anywhere/anytime rather than only during indentation.  ]


>         Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).



  reply	other threads:[~2017-12-01 18:20 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20171129233237.27462.23351@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org>
     [not found] ` <20171129233238.504B5204F1@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org>
2017-11-30  1:53   ` [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls Stefan Monnier
2017-11-30  8:59     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-11-30 10:58       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-11-30 15:31         ` Tom Tromey
2017-11-30 21:28           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-11-30 21:46         ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-11-30 23:03           ` [SUSPECTED SPAM] " Stefan Monnier
2017-12-01 16:07             ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-11-30 23:09           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-01 15:49             ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-01 16:26               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-01 18:20                 ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
2017-12-01 18:59                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-01 19:51                   ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-01 20:50                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02  2:24                       ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-02 20:01                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02 23:47                           ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-03  3:38                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-03 23:43                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04  3:38                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 11:53                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 16:41                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:45                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-05  0:10                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 16:42                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 21:23                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-03 23:58                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-01 17:06               ` Drew Adams
2017-12-01 18:03               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-01 21:27                 ` Vitalie Spinu
2017-12-01 21:38                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-01 22:45                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-02  2:53                   ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-02 14:02                     ` Tom Tromey
2017-12-02 23:48                   ` Richard Stallman
2017-12-01 19:13               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-01 22:35                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-01 23:24                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02  2:47                     ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-02 20:28                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-03  0:03                         ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-03 12:18                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-03 16:02                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03  3:52                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 14:54                           ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-03 18:40                             ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-03 22:26                               ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-03 23:42                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04  2:33                                   ` syntax-propertize and CC-mode (was: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls) Stefan Monnier
2017-12-03 23:53                             ` [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02  8:27                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-02 10:50                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02 11:10                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-02 16:41                           ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-02 17:13                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-02 17:53                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-02 18:33                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-02 20:18                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02 20:14                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-02 20:58                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-02 21:35                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 15:28                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-03 16:35                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 17:20                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-03 19:43                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 15:52                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 16:35                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 16:56                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 22:57                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 23:27                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 18:59                                     ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-03 19:25                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-03 21:20                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-04 16:10                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 16:23                                             ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-04 16:48                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-03 22:01                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04  0:37                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 15:52                                         ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-04 16:46                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 13:08                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 19:01                                             ` CC Mode in MMM Mode(s). [Was: Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls] Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-05 23:34                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-06 18:19                                                 ` CC Mode in MMM Mode(s) Alan Mackenzie
2017-12-07  0:21                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-07 19:49                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2017-12-07 23:43                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-08 21:36                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2017-12-09 15:20                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-03 21:52                                   ` [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04  0:03                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04  2:24                                       ` [SUSPECTED SPAM] " Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 10:03                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 16:21                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:12                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 17:40                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:52                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 19:53                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 20:36                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 21:00                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 21:50                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-06 18:41                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-09 10:47                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-09 11:05                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-10  5:01                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-10  6:53                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-10 20:08                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-11 14:18                                                         ` Getting rid of prog-indentation-context Stefan Monnier
2017-12-11 16:18                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 17:08                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-11 17:26                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-11 18:02                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 18:53                                                                 ` Ingo Lohmar
2017-12-11 21:42                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-09 17:56                                                   ` [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: Replace prog-widen with consolidating widen calls John Wiegley
2017-12-10 20:19                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-10 20:38                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-10 21:41                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-11  9:53                                                           ` Tom Tromey
2017-12-11 15:31                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-10 20:39                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-10 21:39                                                         ` [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ab846: " John Wiegley
2017-12-10 21:43                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-10 21:53                                                         ` [SUSPECTED SPAM] Re: [Emacs-diffs] scratch/widen-less a4ba846: " Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-11 16:04                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 16:25                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-11 17:43                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 18:22                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 20:47                                                                   ` John Wiegley
2017-12-11 21:35                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-11 21:43                                                                       ` John Wiegley
2017-12-14  9:32                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-14 13:20                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-15 11:56                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-14 14:01                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-14 14:17                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-14 14:32                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-14 15:17                                                                                 ` Robert Weiner
2017-12-15 11:54                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-15 11:54                                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-20  0:08                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-20  2:41                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-20 19:13                                                                             ` John Wiegley
2017-12-20 22:30                                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-21  1:33                                                                                 ` John Wiegley
2017-12-21 22:07                                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-21 23:49                                                                                     ` John Wiegley
2017-12-11 17:21                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-11 18:04                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-11 22:20                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-10 22:43                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-10 23:30                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-11  0:26                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 21:46                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-04 22:05                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 22:45                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05  6:03                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 10:42                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 17:49                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 16:12                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 16:49                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-04 17:28                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 21:52                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05  5:08                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05  5:33                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 10:55                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 17:53                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 18:40                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 20:49                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 23:16                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-06  9:28                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-06 13:36                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-08 16:41                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-09 15:17                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-09 15:43                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-10 19:59                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-10 20:04                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 12:55                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 17:57                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 18:54                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-05 20:48                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-05 21:08                                                       ` Ingo Lohmar
2017-12-06  9:26                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-06 13:37                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-15 15:48 Wedler, Christoph
2017-12-16 15:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2017-12-16 17:34 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-18 12:39   ` Wedler, Christoph
2017-12-18 14:50     ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-18 17:41       ` Wedler, Christoph
2017-12-19  0:27         ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-12-19 11:27           ` Wedler, Christoph
2017-12-20  0:07             ` Dmitry Gutov

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