From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master b0042b7: Make CC Mode load cl-lib rather than cl in Emacs 26. Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:30:46 +0000 Message-ID: <20170626203046.GE2471@acm> References: <20170625140057.23973.37361@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20170625140057.DC363208E3@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20170626163150.GA2471@acm> <20170626182037.GD2471@acm> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1498509184 4281 195.159.176.226 (26 Jun 2017 20:33:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2017 20:33:04 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jun 26 22:33:00 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dPagt-0000tM-UV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 22:33:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48407 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dPagz-0003sD-2p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:33:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55288) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dPafv-0003qZ-Ur for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:32:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dPafs-0003Vl-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:31:59 -0400 Original-Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:45877 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dPafs-0003V1-Ee for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 16:31:56 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 24698 invoked by uid 3782); 26 Jun 2017 20:31:54 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6649.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.102.73]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Mon, 26 Jun 2017 22:31:53 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 5320 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Jun 2017 20:30:46 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216015 Archived-At: Hello, Stefan. On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 15:58:27 -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > When a package relies on another package which is not part of the user's > > Emacs, that forces that user either to search for and download that > > other package, or to give up using the first package. Both options are > > likely to cause irritation and anger. > As you know, there are other options. E.g. to distribute that other > package (cl-lib) along with yours. Or to distribute your package via > a system which will take care of "search for and download" (e.g. ELPA). The first would cause irritation to the user. The second is simply not the way CC Mode is distributed. > Bundling cl-lib with your "manually installed" cc-mode package should be > pretty easy. I'd be all too happy to help you with it, if that can sway you. Talk about taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut! > > Yes. One way to reduce this burden would be to make the traditional > > names of these functions, without the "cl-" prefix, of equal status to > > those with the prefix. > Ah, yes, that discussion. It's hard to please everyone. No, not really. Leaving the traditional names in place, producing no compiler warnings, would have pleased more than what was done. > I personally do not care to solve this 3-letter "problem", all that > mattered to me was to have access to all of CL at runtime (and maybe > even preloaded at some point in the future). That is clear. Other things, such as the consistency and compatibility of function names, mattered to other people. > To me, it's an example where emacs-devel managed to negotiate a fairly > good compromise. Funnily enough, I don't remember any negotiation, or even discussion about the matter on emacs-devel before this change happened. The extra macros in CC Mode are one of the consequences. I would really rather not have had to spend time on this. > Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).