From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: "Clément Pit-Claudel" <cpitclaudel@gmail.com>,
"Paul Eggert" <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>,
emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: `message' with quotes [was: bug#23425: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote]
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 17:49:43 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20170608174943.GB2662@acm.fritz.box> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <6f040ef3-1b41-4279-b5e5-0e84a299d440@default>
Hello, Drew.
On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 15:05:51 -0700, Drew Adams wrote:
> `text-quoting-style' controls this (at least in Emacs 25).
> So at least you can bind that to `grave' around any code
> that uses `message', to get back the sane, pre-Emacs 25
> behavior.
> Given that, is there any reason for Alan's proposed new
> format escapes to to tell Emacs: "Hands off my quotes!"?
Being accurate, these sequences tell Emacs "please translate to the
user's preferred version of quotes".
> Of course, you should not HAVE to do that. That should
> be the _default_ behavior: no crazy quote translation.
Indeed.
> `electric-quote-mode' is DISabled by default. We got one
> thing right!
> Why is it that the crazy quote translation for help and
> `message' happens by default, and you have to jump through
> a nearly secret hoop to get back the sane behavior?
> That makes no sense. It's an incompatible change that
> affects all older code as well.
> The default for `text-quoting-style' should be the
> misleadingly named `grave' behavior, i.e., preserve the
> long-established behavior of just leaving ` and ' alone.
Yes. It should also leave literal curly quotes untouched (I believe it
does this).
> Instead, it is a value that gives you curly quotes when
> available. That behavior should not be the default (and
> it really should have a value such as `prefer-curly', not
> `nil').
> Then, anyone wanting to be adventurous or what s?he
> considers "modern" could always bind it to `prefer-curly'
> or whatever, to get today's misguided default behavior,
> or to `curve' to always get translation-to-curly.
> This one we got backwards.
> It's not too late to change the default behavior of
> `text-quoting-style'. (But it is probably too late
> to change the meaning of `nil' for it.) Just make
> the initial value `grave', not `nil'.
> It's also a mistake to (in effect) hide this variable
> from ordinary users, instead of making it easy for them
> to express their preferences in this regard.
This is a thing which reinforces the impression that curly quotes were
foisted surreptitiously on users. The normal Emacs way is to make such
things configurable in a customisable option.
> This is what the Elisp manual says about it (it is not in the Emacs
> manual at all):
> This variable can be used by experts on platforms that
> have problems with curved quotes. As it is not intended
> for casual use, it is not a user option.
Yes. How about _users_ who have problems with curved quotes?
> That couldn't be more misguided. Experts?
I don't see any need for particular expertise to use this variable.
> Only platforms that have "problems with curved quotes"? Not for casual
> use? It's a self-styled "style" variable, but it's not for you or me.
> Sheesh. Why? What happened to the interests of individual users?
Indeed.
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2017-06-08 17:49 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 123+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2016-05-02 14:55 bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-02 16:25 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2016-05-02 16:41 ` Drew Adams
2016-05-02 17:53 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-02 19:10 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-03 15:17 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-03 16:36 ` Drew Adams
2016-05-03 16:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-03 15:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-03 16:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-03 16:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-03 20:03 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-03 20:49 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-04 15:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-04 16:48 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-04 17:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-04 17:37 ` Josh
2016-05-04 19:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-04 18:04 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-04 18:39 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-04 18:57 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-04 19:02 ` John Wiegley
2016-05-04 21:34 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-04 21:50 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-04 23:49 ` Paul Eggert
2016-05-05 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-10 14:41 ` Paul Eggert
2017-05-31 1:07 ` Glenn Morris
2017-05-31 1:42 ` Paul Eggert
2017-05-31 21:24 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-05-31 23:26 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-02 21:02 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-02 21:15 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-03 21:10 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 21:10 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 21:32 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-03 21:32 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-02 21:47 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-03 0:13 ` Glenn Morris
2017-06-03 21:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 21:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 20:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 20:53 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-04 21:01 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-05 16:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-05 18:19 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-05 18:31 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-05 18:31 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-05 20:37 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-05 21:05 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-07 16:50 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 19:29 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-07 19:29 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-06 0:14 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-06 8:21 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-06 8:21 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-06 12:24 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-06 12:24 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-06 13:55 ` Yuri Khan
2017-06-06 13:55 ` Yuri Khan
2017-06-06 18:21 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-06 18:59 ` Yuri Khan
2017-06-06 18:59 ` Yuri Khan
2017-06-06 19:39 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-06 19:39 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-07 4:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-06-07 4:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-06-06 23:09 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-07 7:44 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-07 18:17 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-08 8:04 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-07 13:27 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-07 13:27 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-07 19:13 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 19:27 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-07 19:27 ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2017-06-07 19:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-07 19:33 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-07 19:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 19:51 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 20:33 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 20:56 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-07 22:05 ` `message' with quotes [was: bug#23425: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote] Drew Adams
2017-06-08 17:49 ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
2017-06-07 20:33 ` bug#23425: master branch: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-07 23:28 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-08 17:34 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-08 20:17 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-09 19:41 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-09 20:17 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-09 20:38 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-09 21:05 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-09 21:44 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-09 22:51 ` Drew Adams
2017-06-10 0:20 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-10 10:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-10 10:52 ` David Engster
2017-06-10 11:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-06-10 13:01 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-10 13:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-06-11 10:03 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-11 14:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-06-10 15:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2017-06-05 20:37 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-05 18:19 ` Paul Eggert
2017-06-05 16:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-01 16:56 ` Glenn Morris
2017-06-03 21:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2017-06-03 21:07 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-04 18:46 ` John Wiegley
2016-05-04 20:23 ` Dmitry Gutov
2016-05-04 21:15 ` John Wiegley
2016-05-04 22:19 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2016-05-05 7:12 ` Andreas Schwab
2016-05-05 17:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-05 8:06 ` Alan Mackenzie
2016-05-05 17:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-05 23:46 ` John Wiegley
2016-05-06 8:54 ` Nicolas Petton
2016-05-04 19:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2016-05-04 21:49 ` Andreas Schwab
2017-06-09 20:31 ` Glenn Morris
2017-06-10 7:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
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