From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Damian Chrzanowski Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: emacs-oob-reboot Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 11:38:48 +0100 Message-ID: <20170506113848.12ce2bd7@arch_rig> References: <83efw2fndf.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1494068597 20952 195.159.176.226 (6 May 2017 11:03:17 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 6 May 2017 11:03:17 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat May 06 13:03:12 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1d6xUU-0005JQ-H1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 May 2017 13:03:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50858 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6xUa-00074a-8I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 06 May 2017 07:03:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44757) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6x73-0001oj-Cn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 May 2017 06:38:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6x72-0003XJ-5v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 06 May 2017 06:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]:36922) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d6x70-0003X7-FY; Sat, 06 May 2017 06:38:54 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id m123so24417777wma.0; Sat, 06 May 2017 03:38:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YfFYRkmNIntoYN09XLta5RfI7I5c9zZ6Mi62GbdNMmA=; b=EHzqaTGrbDYuxXA++UZ5oLPvomjFVZwak1q5cfK3VTmiZWVv/dJ70PAW/oniZJBwxE T8ET61VgZxdUT9oDgR6C7+q6/haHIV1sEtrumQwrM4kA9jUz0gA7pA2RKc2J39E96C4D 3HR13oJb1zzmvvVL7vpU3BeBamXiacq8dtN9NVX7Yon/dc8cpjOTiqJVm5c4/1Gb3TBV NsQ8VUCx/2AKa9Bwo7Trql1tTZy78hlrruap1Q/1cxbk6hDTKttpVJa69wGq874QwsZG WfXHKpU7vwejFplmNc2wFeIQKpgWucvASYq9OxE+x+219hP/qgcLIZwalZWOl9zdTlKC D89w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:in-reply-to :references:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YfFYRkmNIntoYN09XLta5RfI7I5c9zZ6Mi62GbdNMmA=; b=YmCFICKLYwf/ZUggHcr8A8MXFwPpHGiH5LeO9BXYOK6opV2+C7cLtlNv5suJ3DRqOU okynMwf2vpL1ZxIVxHxHpFLVNbygwG+ReC8yuplrn1NFZzZ7Wqf5rOzQvgrlJiFkmoUt 4wuKWwIBxsRSzOu+Ry+CnAuka82EPA7zM0lXZLB/tHdsSk6QLrgs9zZ5X8jPmB7XJBcn GU1rFZI/Vbk2hAESOhwAr29AkNEM96NWAkLEEXTCEXYC2dfS+LONgEoeep2Qxl3c5OVw ThXOTiiNKcKCZp2+Nl0kyKEB6uy4RyEO2h/NmKxKMhK4S+X3BilgjAh37+VuYk1Q8m3F ZLFA== X-Gm-Message-State: AN3rC/4yg9EbBuA7c8E+FIB4GcX/1t4rSJJ4Z8IXhoPzP9hhYNwL1Xt1 YkPnmeoXpHkmkkl5d+s= X-Received: by 10.80.184.51 with SMTP id j48mr36031203ede.165.1494067133127; Sat, 06 May 2017 03:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from arch_rig ([2a02:8085:2040:3d80:d26b:16c5:c015:2237]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m53sm2192217edc.29.2017.05.06.03.38.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-CHACHA20-POLY1305 bits=256/256); Sat, 06 May 2017 03:38:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83efw2fndf.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.15.0-dirty (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 May 2017 07:03:01 -0400 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:214617 Archived-At: On Sat, 06 May 2017 10:36:12 +0300 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sat, 06 May 2017 07:13:37 +0100 > > From: Damian Chrzanowski > > > > There's a lot of talk on reddit already about new improvements > > "breaking" things, people's configs suffering, key bindings > > reconfigured, etc. > > FWIW, we try to minimize such breakage, and have the information about > getting back the old behavior in NEWS which goes with each new > release. > > > Therefore, I suggest that on first load emacs should ask the user > > about key binding preferences : > > > > 1. I have my own .el files, ask me where they are Emacs so that you > > can import them (from GitHub, zip files, etc.) > > 2. I want emacs standard keyboard bindings please > > 3. I want Cua mode so that Emacs behaves like "popular" editors > > 4. I want Vim-like modal editing key bindings (this option will > > install evil and a few evil extras, hypothetically). 5. Whatever > > else is out there??? > > If your key bindings are recorded on init files of any kind that Emacs > processes during startup, they will be largely unaffected by changes > in new Emacs versions. So I'm not sure what problem you are asking to > solve by this proposal. > Sorry I should have made it more clear in what I meant in this section. There is a new initiative https://github.com/josteink/emacs-oob-reboot to revamp Emacs' defaults, and make it more modern ! One of the proposals (in terms of attractiveness for new users) is the option to automatically setup keybindings upon Emacs' first run. All I am trying to say is that I believe that this functionality would most certainly attract a new user, as most users (like myself at the beginning) were terrified of Ctrl + ... for navigation. It would be a nice and thoughtful touch and I am nearly certain that it could draw users of other editors to start using Emacs. The more users we have the better the software potentially can become. > > Let's not fool ourselves, editor wars are silly and childish. What > > we want to do is create a more attractive and mature environment > > and I believe that this will represent a more open approach. This > > approach will also show, at the very beginning, just how flexible > > Emacs is and that it can be modified to any preferences. > > > > I am of a strong opinion that a lot of folks would simply put Emacs > > away based on the fact that they felt forced to use Ctrl +... to > > move around. Well... Let's move on and show that Emacs is much more > > than that! > > That's okay, and that's why Emacs provides customization features. > You should be able to customize your keybindings once, and have those > customizations be in effect for many Emacs versions. Yes I agree, although I suggest a better out of the box experience for future Emacs releases.