From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Bob Proulx Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: [Emacs] request: better subject lines Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 12:38:03 -0600 Message-ID: <20170502113113016584796@bob.proulx.com> References: <874lx5dhwd.fsf@pippiandcarlos.com> <20170502134109.GA26043@tuxteam.de> <012b2d17-acf4-28d5-2650-59ac6db6b611@mousecar.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1493750319 17304 195.159.176.226 (2 May 2017 18:38:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 2 May 2017 18:38:39 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170306 (1.8.0) To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 02 20:38:35 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1d5ch0-0004Oy-Ib for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 May 2017 20:38:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60563 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d5ch6-0005x7-8X for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 02 May 2017 14:38:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d5cgc-0005x1-30 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 02 May 2017 14:38:11 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d5cgX-0003U1-5Z for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 02 May 2017 14:38:10 -0400 Original-Received: from havoc.proulx.com ([96.88.95.61]:35151) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1d5cgW-0003Tr-Tn for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 02 May 2017 14:38:05 -0400 Original-Received: from joseki.proulx.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by havoc.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ECDA7E1 for ; Tue, 2 May 2017 12:38:04 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: from hysteria.proulx.com (hysteria.proulx.com [192.168.230.119]) by joseki.proulx.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7E89217E5 for ; Tue, 2 May 2017 12:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Original-Received: by hysteria.proulx.com (Postfix, from userid 1000) id D0FE82DC5F; Tue, 2 May 2017 12:38:03 -0600 (MDT) Mail-Followup-To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <012b2d17-acf4-28d5-2650-59ac6db6b611@mousecar.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 96.88.95.61 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:112928 Archived-At: Oh boy! Another subject line tag debate. Again. What is even better is that it can never be off topic for any mailing list because every mailing list has a subject line. Therefore this debate is doomed to happen again and again on every mailing list. Just like quoting styles. Sigh. ken wrote: > I've heard all these arguments/instructions before. They are neither > comforting nor persuasive. I have as well. On both sides. In the end I have decided there is no way to appease everyone. Because people like what they like and each person likes different things. People work using work flows that are different and will not change those work flows to the other people's work flows. Therefore what we end up with are camps of people who tolerate the diversity of the other camp. > Also, I've been managing five mailing lists for about ten years, all > of which have [mailing-list-name] descriptors (and many more other > mailing lists earlier for fewer numbers of years), and absolutely > *no one* /ever/ complained, or even mentioned anything, about those > descriptors. I find that exceedingly difficult to believe. In fact the possibility is vanishingly small. Because for example let me complain about those tags right here and now! Which means you cannot make that claim in the future moving forward from this point. Because I have now complained about them. You will never be able to make that claim in the future or someone will be able to point to this message and show my complaint. :-) I have been administering mailing lists for decades and I have been reading complaints about both the presence and absence of subject line tags since well before then. The one universal constant is that people will complain. About everything possible. What color do we paint the bike shed? >... > There are still people today who are new to mailing lists. There always > will be. Those are the people I am relating to, people who have a problem > or question, are told to join this or that mailing list, somehow manage to > find one, wade through the steps to subscribe, aren't sure they're > subscribed, not even sure what "subscribed" means, then eventually > (hopefully) find "it's working" for them (sort of)... That proposal is a race to the bottom. If anyone needs to learn something then no one can. I reject the idea that we all must move to the lowest common denominator. Instead I think we should embrace the diversity of it. For example there have been proponents for an emacs topic web Q&A site such as stack exchange, stack overflow, and so forth. (I forget the details now.) For newcomers that is even more accessible than mailing lists because one need only know how to browse the web to access it. And so forth. Maybe a GNU Social or Disaspora group? > then someone on that list gives them further instructions on > properly managing their mail. Yes, it's probably no big deal for > many here to set up and manage mail filters, and they're quite proud > they can, and so expect everyone to do the same. The fact is, not > everyone can... not everyone wants to bother. I think there is a huge value in the community coming together to help educate, train, help out, lift up people who are coming to the community. It takes a whole village to raise a child. I think that is one of the best parts of our communities. We join together help each other out. We build schools. We educate. We train. An educated person is more help and benefit to the community. I do not believe that avoiding the need for education, to enable existence without education, is a good direction for any community. > Third, let's put the responsibility shoe on the other foot. Why don't we > put the descriptors into all list mail and those who don't want them can set > up filters on their systems to take them out? That symmetrical argument is reversible. Let's remove all tags from all mailing lists and the people who want them can add them. Same thing in reverse. Equally valid. Bob